Great question. These fundamental issues are the REAL challenges to be overcome, yes... - Edit 1
Before modification by Shannow at 21/11/2009 07:53:08 AM
I'll help you out. In the battle against Rahvin and Sevanna's boyfriend's armies, Rand attacks forces up to 5 miles away. He then also says that this is effectively the maximum distance he can reach. This was with the little man angreal, so you can maybe half that distance to be conservative, for when he channels unaided. Although it is not certain that he would have to reduce his distance without the angreal - he may just not be able to make weaves as powerful, but at the same distance.
Either way, we are talking a distance of miles here.[/quote]
Miles where he can make weaves that don't require him to know the place!
Your argument is like saying that since Rand can make a fireball anywhere with knowing the place, he can open Gateways without knowing the place!
Did you read my post? I showed how useless this was!
And what happens when the gateway into space opens? He gets sucked into space himself! Or he asphyxiates because of the amount of air being sucked out of the atmosphere around him.
Plus, with this kind of an "open plug" at the bottom of the ocean, you'll promptly get a powerful whirlpool, further confusing Ishamael, and maybe even preventing a second gateway.
Sorry. Bob cannot be my uncle till he makes sense.
Dude, are you thinking of the consequences of your action? The moment he opens a gateway into space, he's going to get sucked into it. I highly doubt even the strongest channeler can withstand or dam such forces. They cannot even defy gravity and fly, using just a weave!
And what sphere of air is going to be sufficient against the sucking force a gateway into space will create?
I mean really. There are whacko ideas about OP use out there, but this is just plain nonsense.
Either way, we are talking a distance of miles here.[/quote]
Miles where he can make weaves that don't require him to know the place!
Your argument is like saying that since Rand can make a fireball anywhere with knowing the place, he can open Gateways without knowing the place!
As for not knowing the sea floor - he has his new trick from tGS, described by Nynaeve.
Did you read my post? I showed how useless this was!
But even better, he can simply make a gateway from in front of his ship to the sea floor - facing AWAY from him. The result would be a jet of water of unimaginable strength blasting out of the opening away from the ship. Then all he needs to do is spin a second gateway, facing the first one, 1 milimetre away from it. This second gateway opens into space.
And what happens when the gateway into space opens? He gets sucked into space himself! Or he asphyxiates because of the amount of air being sucked out of the atmosphere around him.
Plus, with this kind of an "open plug" at the bottom of the ocean, you'll promptly get a powerful whirlpool, further confusing Ishamael, and maybe even preventing a second gateway.
The result is the massive jet of water from the first gateway blasting straight through the second one and emptying into space.
Now he just inverts and hides these weaves with Illusion, and Bob's your uncle.
Now he just inverts and hides these weaves with Illusion, and Bob's your uncle.
Sorry. Bob cannot be my uncle till he makes sense.
Hell, he doesn't even have to use a ship. He can sit in a cave in the Blight somewhere and complete the whole operation in minutes. In that case he just needs to make the gateway to space first, and the one opening to the sea floor, second. And even better, he should make the opening into space maybe a foot larger than the one into the sea, to make sure the entire water stream from the smaller gateway fits into it without any hassle.
Dude, are you thinking of the consequences of your action? The moment he opens a gateway into space, he's going to get sucked into it. I highly doubt even the strongest channeler can withstand or dam such forces. They cannot even defy gravity and fly, using just a weave!
And lastly, he should encapsulate this little contraption with a sphere of Air that is sealed off, unless he wants the earth's atmosphere to also drain away into space. Heck, come to think of it, maybe he actually WANTS to do that too.
And what sphere of air is going to be sufficient against the sucking force a gateway into space will create?
I mean really. There are whacko ideas about OP use out there, but this is just plain nonsense.
Fionwe - Are there really limits on the durability of a wall of air? When lifting something with air we see it but once you have something in place I don't remember any case where it can break down. Things made with the power are described as eternal and indestructible no matter what mundane (not one power) power is placed against them.
Going to the specifics of this theory, a shield of air against vacuum has to withstand a force of 1 Atmosphere which is no biggy. We see Rand do it when warding against the differential of one against a half atmosphere when he sit atop Dragonmount.
To ward against the pressure of sea bottom is more problematic since there the pressure is 100s of atmospheres. Still walls of air are supposed to be indestructible. Are they weaker then a sheet of thick iron (which is capable of protecting a submarine from such pressures)? I suppose if he's desperate he can even make the cage out of cuendilar.
Anyway the bigger question this thread made me think about is:
Do inanimate objects move on their own across a Gateway? I think the answer is no. Only living being have the capacity to decide to move. Inanimate objects do no though energy (like light) does.
Edit to add - I didn't understand the part in tGS about the new technique Nynaeve finds. What is it?
I feel that the issues you raised present the serious barriers to such an implementation of gateways. The, shall we say "practical" issues raised by Fionwe are minor details for which there can be many different potential solutions.
For example, if channelers can planet hop across solar systems, it is obvious that some planets would have very different atmoshpere, or perhaps atmospheres so miniscule that you have close to a 1 atmosphere pressure differential.
Some other planets, may have atmospheres so dense that you may have pressure differentials of MANY atmospheres, but in the opposite direction.
So clearly, channelers were able to counter these effects when making gateways to Travel across the galaxy.
So the practicalities are not of consequence.
What IS of consequence, is whether there are fundamental problems with using the greater pressure on two sides of a gateway to generate some kind of movement of fluid/gas or even solid matter.
Your suggestion that inanimate matter cannot move across a gateway on its own might well be the likely answer. I think we don't have enough information yet to prove it one way or another, but in order to avoid all kinds of weird scenarios, not to mention perpetual motion energy generators (if you create horizontal gateways above one another and have an object perpetually falling through the bottom one only to come out of the top one again, in an endless cycle).
These are the issues that I was interested in discussing. And that's why I got somewhat irritated in the discussion with Fionwe, where lame stuff like "the channeler creating the gateway will be sucked through it and be lost in space" kept being raised.
With all the abilities so far demonstrated with the Power, and all the unknown abilities yet unrevealed, it seems virtually assured that safety measures exist that can protect a channeler from virtually every physical danger.
The fundamental issues, though, cannot be circumvented so easily.
Thanks for your thought provoking response to my original question.