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So let me get this straight... Shannow Send a noteboard - 19/11/2009 06:44:03 AM
About ow you viewed Semirhage's strength based on quotes in tGS. Then Brandon showed that the first thing we need to consider if RJ would make his main protagonists so weak.

Can it be stated any clearer? "The only sister who could match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing."

But you're divorcing the quotes from the context!
Moggy herself says that Elayne is strong enough to be more than troublesome. If she could someone of Elayne's strength is so useless against Moggy as you claim, why would Moggy (who has the same Foresaken habit of belittling others' strength) feel troubled by her?
There. Egwene says the only sister who can match Moghedien is in Ebou Dar. Now, unless you are saying Egwene is in Ebou Dar while thinking this, this settles the debate. Egwene herself has settled it. In the context of that sentence, the next one is even more explicit. She has already said she cannot match Moghedien. Now she goes on to say Moghedien could kill her without anyone noticing. What more do you want?

A battle where Moggy is able to hand Egwene her ass. I don't think that will be the result, though.
Must she say "I cannot hope to match Moghedien's strength?" Oh wait, she's already said that!

I'm not saying she is as strong as Moggy. But I am saying she is only one step below, which RJ himself stated. Are you now claiming that a woman one step weaker than another cannot fight the stronger woman?
As for the Lelaine, Romanda and Egwene quote. For Pete's sake, she is talking about them matcing the male Forsaken that freed Moghedien. Not about them matching the two together.

Why do you assume that? Moggy will just vanish, will she?
Egwene clearly is not thinking of Moggy still being leashed when the male Forsaken is being fought. In that case, Egwene could have used the a'dam.
She and Aviendha combined cannot even match Lanfear. And Egwene plus Aviendha is already stronger than Egwene plus Lelaine plus Romanda.

We don't know that she and Avi cannot match Lanfear. Avi was far from full strength, and neither was anywhere near as skilled as they are now.
I cannot believe you are even trying to twist this passage in the way you just did. The passage is as clear as it can possibly be.

But you can twist passages, when it suits your ideas?


You're saying that because I read some passages INCORRECTLY, you also want to read some passages INCORRECTLY?

That's really gonna help...


Besides, the Semirhage' passages I quoted were all ambiguous. There is zero ambiguouty in the Egwene/Moghedien quote.
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Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list... Shannow - 18/11/2009 05:56:58 PM 2201 Views
Sounds good Etzel - 18/11/2009 06:08:15 PM 1110 Views
Re: Sounds good Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:12:53 PM 1153 Views
Re: Someryn Logain - 18/11/2009 06:20:44 PM 1154 Views
I acknowledge that possibility... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:24:30 PM 1033 Views
Someryn implies that Graendal is stronger. Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/11/2009 01:51:31 PM 1139 Views
Excellent point...I'd forgotten about that... Shannow - 19/11/2009 02:00:30 PM 1055 Views
As I understand it... Etzel - 18/11/2009 06:23:26 PM 1140 Views
My view is that the new list is just a revised one, after RJ changed his mind on some things... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:28:53 PM 1180 Views
Agreed. fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 06:31:22 PM 992 Views
I suppose that's possible. *NM* Etzel - 18/11/2009 06:31:42 PM 795 Views
I agree with this interpretation on the new vs. old list kcf - 18/11/2009 07:13:02 PM 1072 Views
Re: Sounds good kcf - 18/11/2009 07:11:17 PM 985 Views
Did it sound like Sanderson knew the names of all 6 women above Nynaeve? Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:12:57 PM 1110 Views
Re: Did it sound like Sanderson knew the names of all 6 women above Nynaeve? kcf - 18/11/2009 07:15:22 PM 1208 Views
Also, a couple more questions, if I may... Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:18:50 PM 986 Views
Re: Also, a couple more questions, if I may... kcf - 18/11/2009 07:23:45 PM 1007 Views
But you said that you asked him whether Cyndane was one of the 6, and he said no. Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:26:17 PM 1051 Views
Re: But you said that you asked him whether Cyndane was one of the 6, and he said no. kcf - 18/11/2009 07:31:35 PM 1019 Views
That blows a heck of a lot of this theory out of the water... Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:33:39 PM 1044 Views
it's possible, but I'd say unlikely kcf - 18/11/2009 07:34:32 PM 1069 Views
One problem... Rand al'Thor - 18/11/2009 06:10:06 PM 1181 Views
No... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:14:48 PM 1086 Views
That's not a problem. Rand al'Thor - 18/11/2009 06:31:37 PM 1031 Views
Why on earth would there be multiple restrictions on Cyndane's strength? Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:47:56 PM 935 Views
Sorry buddy Rand al'Thor - 18/11/2009 07:36:00 PM 1061 Views
Re: Sorry buddy rhiane - 18/11/2009 09:49:01 PM 974 Views
Are you able to give any more detail on Sanderson's answer to your Cyndane question? Shannow - 18/11/2009 10:02:17 PM 1051 Views
But Nynaeve and Mogheiden were of equal strength beetnemesis - 18/11/2009 06:15:52 PM 1223 Views
Nynaeve matched Moghedien when Nynaeve was not close to her full potential yet... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:19:07 PM 1260 Views
I agree...and I have a question regarding Moghedien. Logain - 18/11/2009 06:30:07 PM 1067 Views
Cyndane has to be above Graendal. *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 06:33:16 PM 590 Views
You're right. I'll post new list below. *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 06:39:36 PM 613 Views
Was she? Nyn was mid20s and a wilder, I thought she had reached full strength beetnemesis - 18/11/2009 08:00:24 PM 1112 Views
As late as CoS, Nynaeve states that she is not close to her full potential yet. *NM* Shannow - 18/11/2009 08:04:47 PM 612 Views
She really hasn't had that much time channelling though. Wotmaniac Reborn - 18/11/2009 08:07:31 PM 776 Views
Wilders rarely reach their full potential if they're blocked. *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 08:43:30 PM 630 Views
I know the Cleansing forced her a bit. Gher - 18/11/2009 08:44:59 PM 1064 Views
That's been said before- anyone know where it says that in the text? beetnemesis - 19/11/2009 05:53:50 AM 845 Views
Re: Nynaeve matched Moghedien when Nynaeve was not close to her full potential yet... The_Archer - 10/12/2010 08:07:05 PM 1029 Views
Re: Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list... Tedtheman - 18/11/2009 06:22:50 PM 939 Views
More or less agreed. I was right about Nynaeve! fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 06:29:27 PM 989 Views
IMO... Etzel - 18/11/2009 06:37:19 PM 1103 Views
I don't know... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 06:56:10 PM 975 Views
I still think Alivia is below Lanfear's strength level... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:59:01 PM 1278 Views
That just doesn't make sense... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 07:02:17 PM 1101 Views
I agree that Lanfear and Alivia are tied. *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 07:06:19 PM 619 Views
All of my instincts indeed argue that 4 of the Forsaken CANNOT be below Nynaeve, but... Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:06:25 PM 935 Views
But why doesn't it make sense? fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 08:47:42 PM 825 Views
Talaan, Alivia and Sharina reduced my estimation of Nynaeve dramatically... Shannow - 18/11/2009 08:54:29 PM 1001 Views
All this can be explained by the fact that Nynaeve was yet to reach her potential. fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:25:41 PM 1010 Views
I don't think... Etzel - 18/11/2009 07:08:09 PM 1166 Views
Damane never recieve special status... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 08:52:32 PM 966 Views
Good point... Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:00:51 PM 993 Views
Thing is... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:10:45 PM 1045 Views
Lanfear cannot even defeat Rand. Nynaeve wouldn't last a minute against him. Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:13:06 PM 992 Views
And Rand couldn't defeat Lanfear. What's your point? fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:26:06 PM 817 Views
He could. RJ stated it in a Q&A. Rand just couldn't bring himself to do it... Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:45:18 PM 823 Views
But so could Lanfear, and both had angreal, confusing the situation considerably. fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:47:25 PM 872 Views
My point was... Etzel - 18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM 1033 Views
I agree *NM* Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:10:46 PM 583 Views
If Tuon had the strongest... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:12:22 PM 944 Views
Sera must be stronger... Etzel - 18/11/2009 09:25:00 PM 938 Views
There's no reason to be certain about it... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:28:26 PM 988 Views
Well, the Bloodknives are precisely Tuon's tools Etzel - 18/11/2009 09:32:46 PM 941 Views
There are SIX women stronger than Nynaeve, and at least five are accounted for... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:46:28 PM 999 Views
There are six stronger women named on the list Etzel - 19/11/2009 11:40:52 AM 1002 Views
I'm not ignoring Sera! fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 06:13:43 PM 865 Views
You misunderstand me... Etzel - 19/11/2009 06:16:31 PM 950 Views
I doesn't make "sense". Let's leave it... fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 06:19:52 PM 939 Views
There are SIX women stronger than Nynaeve, and at least five are accounted for... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:46:29 PM 1115 Views
But Alivia (while strong in the OP) is an old fraile lady on her deathbed. *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 09:41:33 PM 618 Views
Pardon? Don't understand this really. *NM* Etzel - 19/11/2009 11:45:21 AM 457 Views
You keep saying Alivia was "a common damane" darius_sedai - 28/11/2009 08:58:42 PM 816 Views
You were right about Nynaeve, I was right about Graendal! Well done! Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:37:42 PM 1086 Views
Yes. This is one WoT debate coming to a close... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 06:54:06 PM 849 Views
I have one problem with your list. Kaldric - 18/11/2009 06:36:02 PM 1045 Views
RJ said the Forsaken ALWAYS overrate themselves... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:54:45 PM 903 Views
I totally agree. Mesaana is weaker than Semirhage. This was also confirmed by BS *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 06:56:30 PM 573 Views
Mesaana is cold and calculating. Kaldric - 18/11/2009 07:03:49 PM 950 Views
I'm sorry, but I find it mindblowing that you find this mindblowing. TaskmasterJack - 18/11/2009 06:36:37 PM 991 Views
Some of us have been debating this for 5 years on Wotmania... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:57:08 PM 1052 Views
I think it goes like this: Logain - 18/11/2009 06:53:07 PM 989 Views
There is a side effect to all of this rearrangement...we may have to rethink the wonder girls. Logain - 18/11/2009 07:04:17 PM 1046 Views
We'll have to re-read the sections where Moghedien is captured. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 18/11/2009 07:08:07 PM 950 Views
Damn. That's a thought I definitely DON'T relish. Thankfully... Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:09:18 PM 982 Views
Helpless at her strength at the time, or helpless at Egwene's full potential? *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 07:26:15 PM 567 Views
Egwene was forced, so she was already at her full potential when she made this comment. *NM* Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:45:08 PM 580 Views
I admit she was forced, but how does that guarantee she was at full strength? *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 08:06:40 PM 586 Views
I'm 90% sure it is stated somewhere... *NM* Shannow - 18/11/2009 08:10:03 PM 566 Views
Egwene was at her full strength. Elayne comments on this in The Shadow Rising IIRC. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 18/11/2009 08:34:37 PM 1053 Views
She only says that Egwene is stronger and had been forced darius_sedai - 29/11/2009 01:54:56 AM 948 Views
Where does she say this? fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 08:54:39 PM 997 Views
No, she explicitly refers to herself vs Moghedien... Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:01:53 PM 997 Views
Here are the quotes... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:24:24 PM 1012 Views
Oh come on. You're totally twisting that passage to suit your argument... Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:54:56 PM 902 Views
I could say the same... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 10:50:44 PM 919 Views
So let me get this straight... Shannow - 19/11/2009 06:44:03 AM 932 Views
No... fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 07:37:29 AM 989 Views
Look at it this way... Shannow - 19/11/2009 10:23:06 AM 964 Views
Dude, there were other quotes... fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 06:15:32 PM 865 Views
What about Sammael? The debate about Sammael and Rahvin has been decided now too. Logain - 18/11/2009 08:03:35 PM 1031 Views
Totally disagree... Shannow - 18/11/2009 08:08:34 PM 1074 Views
Re: Totally disagree... Logain - 18/11/2009 08:22:07 PM 967 Views
Males likely go like this... Shannow - 18/11/2009 08:27:27 PM 930 Views
Dude, Rand is scared of Graendal... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM 930 Views
Disagree... Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:09:45 PM 1043 Views
Disagree back... for the last time though... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:39:25 PM 890 Views
About the top 6... Shannow - 18/11/2009 10:08:37 PM 972 Views
And One Power Battles turn political on a regualr basis, do they? fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 10:54:35 PM 1019 Views
That's ridiculous... Shannow - 19/11/2009 07:19:08 AM 909 Views
Re: That's ridiculous... fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 08:08:14 AM 951 Views
Well... Shannow - 19/11/2009 10:29:45 AM 950 Views
This is getting idiotic... fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 06:19:08 PM 943 Views
Re: Dude, Rand is scared of Graendal... The_Archer - 10/12/2010 07:31:18 PM 939 Views
If Rahvin were stronger... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 08:59:32 PM 919 Views
Graendal could not face down Rand. And if she thinks she can it is b/c she has an angreal. *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 09:49:00 PM 542 Views
But Rand did not know of her angreal. *NM* fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 12:03:21 AM 543 Views
Rand knows he can beat Graendal in a heads-up-duel. Graendal knows she would lose. *NM* Logain - 28/11/2009 10:07:27 PM 579 Views
Disagreement Corwin - 19/11/2009 01:39:49 AM 1042 Views
Some more from Brandon... kcf - 19/11/2009 04:29:41 AM 950 Views
So we're back where we started? fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 04:56:36 AM 748 Views
Re: So we're back where we started? kcf - 19/11/2009 05:18:15 AM 1042 Views
Someone must ask him: Is Cyndane one of the 6 above Nynaeve. Shannow - 19/11/2009 05:35:10 AM 902 Views
My opinion: down this path lies insanity. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 19/11/2009 02:53:59 PM 981 Views
Thoughts Heiko - 19/11/2009 04:55:09 AM 1046 Views
Re: Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list... The_Archer - 10/12/2010 07:55:51 PM 897 Views
we know from a direcet quote in TPoD that Nynaeve had not yet reached full strength darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 08:36:50 PM 949 Views
Re: we know from a direcet quote in TPoD that Nynaeve had not yet reached full strength The_Archer - 10/12/2010 09:17:48 PM 957 Views
winning in TAR had nothing to do with OP strength... that was pure skill and later Moghedien lost! darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 04:14:26 PM 917 Views
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