We've been through this before. Basically, RJ said the top six Foresaken were the best at physical and political survival. If Moridin could wipe the floor with Graendal, he would have wiped the floor with her and forced a cour'sourva on her and made her do as he wished. He doesn't because she's a considerable threat.
Rand isn't scared of Graendal at all. He is scared that she might ESCAPE him if he confronted her.
And how could she do that, if he is so overwhelmingly strong?
Why not gate in on her, linked with Nynaeve? Surely he could have beaten her. If she escaped, he could easily follow her, like he did Rahvin.
That he did not even think this an option only proves one thing... Graendal is damn tough to beat.
Where?
LTT/Rand think they could weave fire to kill Lanfear, but she's able to counter his unseen weaves. Why would she let a weave of fire slip by?
Then why did he need to CK to beat her?
Never had an argument with this.
Why probably weaker? This pedestal placement of Lanfear is mystifying and frustrating. She's uber strong. so is Rand. If someone can match Rand, someone can match Lanfear!
And Nynaeve was considerably weaker than Alivia in WH. Reanne said this, and we don't even know if she could tell a woman's potential. Nynaeve has grown much, since then.
And he had an angreal, as did she, and we don't know which was stronger.
Also, you forget that Lanfear wasn't fighting to kill. She could have finished him up any time, but she was toying with him. Maybe Rand could have stopped that, but any attempt of his to kill he would have been countered.
Yes. She is talking about the fact that where generally there should be some doubt as to who would win, Rand always seems to win, be it Rahvin or Ishy. Clearly, more than OP strength and skill are at play.
Rand isn't scared of Graendal at all. He is scared that she might ESCAPE him if he confronted her.
And how could she do that, if he is so overwhelmingly strong?
Why not gate in on her, linked with Nynaeve? Surely he could have beaten her. If she escaped, he could easily follow her, like he did Rahvin.
That he did not even think this an option only proves one thing... Graendal is damn tough to beat.
RJ himself has confirmed that Rand could have ended the battle with Lanfear at the Docks if he was willing to kill a woman.
Where?
LTT/Rand think they could weave fire to kill Lanfear, but she's able to counter his unseen weaves. Why would she let a weave of fire slip by?
Rand would wipe the floor with Graendal.
Then why did he need to CK to beat her?
Graendal is weaker than Cyndane, who is weaker than Nynaeve.
Never had an argument with this.
Nynaeve is CONSIDERABLY weaker than Alivia, who is most proabably weaker than Lanfear.
Why probably weaker? This pedestal placement of Lanfear is mystifying and frustrating. She's uber strong. so is Rand. If someone can match Rand, someone can match Lanfear!
And Nynaeve was considerably weaker than Alivia in WH. Reanne said this, and we don't even know if she could tell a woman's potential. Nynaeve has grown much, since then.
And Rand could have defeated Lanfear at the Docks, if he wanted to, despite not being at full strength yet.
And he had an angreal, as did she, and we don't know which was stronger.
Also, you forget that Lanfear wasn't fighting to kill. She could have finished him up any time, but she was toying with him. Maybe Rand could have stopped that, but any attempt of his to kill he would have been countered.
Graendal would stand no chance against Rand. She acknowledged as much when she said she'd never face him head on if Rahvin and Ishamael fell before him.
Yes. She is talking about the fact that where generally there should be some doubt as to who would win, Rand always seems to win, be it Rahvin or Ishy. Clearly, more than OP strength and skill are at play.
They were good at personal survival, both physically and politically, according to RJ.
Clearly some were stronger on the political side, and some on the physical side. Lanfear, for one, was probably crap on the political side, but unmatched by females in terms of physical One Power ability.
Semirhage was also of very rare strength, but by all accounts not the greatest general or politician. She was very ruthless though. Graendal was clearly not as high up on the physical strength side, but UNMATCHED on the political side. As stated by Rand himself.
Demandred was probably very strong in One Power ability, and is a proven political and military operator.
Sammael probably leaned more toward the physical side, and was a great general. And not too shabby a politician, judging by his interactions with Graendal.
My point is, Graendal is obviously weaker than Semirhage in strength. And Semirhage must be CONSIDERABLY weaker than Lanfear. But Graendal's political skills make up for that. That's why she survived for so long.
In a battle with Sammael, she might have a 30% chance of victory. But that's enough to stay Sammael's hand, unless he has a clear advantage. In turn, Graendal is able to outmaneuver him on the political side 7 times out of 10. All in all, it balances out without having to make Graendal more powerful than she really is in terms of the One Power.
Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list...
18/11/2009 05:56:58 PM
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Sounds good
18/11/2009 06:08:15 PM
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Re: Sounds good
18/11/2009 06:12:53 PM
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Re: Someryn
18/11/2009 06:20:44 PM
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As I understand it...
18/11/2009 06:23:26 PM
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My view is that the new list is just a revised one, after RJ changed his mind on some things...
18/11/2009 06:28:53 PM
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Re: Sounds good
18/11/2009 07:11:17 PM
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Did it sound like Sanderson knew the names of all 6 women above Nynaeve?
18/11/2009 07:12:57 PM
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Re: Did it sound like Sanderson knew the names of all 6 women above Nynaeve?
18/11/2009 07:15:22 PM
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Also, a couple more questions, if I may...
18/11/2009 07:18:50 PM
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Re: Also, a couple more questions, if I may...
18/11/2009 07:23:45 PM
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But you said that you asked him whether Cyndane was one of the 6, and he said no.
18/11/2009 07:26:17 PM
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Re: But you said that you asked him whether Cyndane was one of the 6, and he said no.
18/11/2009 07:31:35 PM
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One problem...
18/11/2009 06:10:06 PM
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No...
18/11/2009 06:14:48 PM
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That's not a problem.
18/11/2009 06:31:37 PM
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Why on earth would there be multiple restrictions on Cyndane's strength?
18/11/2009 06:47:56 PM
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Sorry buddy
18/11/2009 07:36:00 PM
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Re: Sorry buddy
18/11/2009 09:49:01 PM
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Are you able to give any more detail on Sanderson's answer to your Cyndane question?
18/11/2009 10:02:17 PM
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But Nynaeve and Mogheiden were of equal strength
18/11/2009 06:15:52 PM
- 1255 Views
Nynaeve matched Moghedien when Nynaeve was not close to her full potential yet...
18/11/2009 06:19:07 PM
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I agree...and I have a question regarding Moghedien.
18/11/2009 06:30:07 PM
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Was she? Nyn was mid20s and a wilder, I thought she had reached full strength
18/11/2009 08:00:24 PM
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As late as CoS, Nynaeve states that she is not close to her full potential yet. *NM*
18/11/2009 08:04:47 PM
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Wilders rarely reach their full potential if they're blocked. *NM*
18/11/2009 08:43:30 PM
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I know the Cleansing forced her a bit.
18/11/2009 08:44:59 PM
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That's been said before- anyone know where it says that in the text?
19/11/2009 05:53:50 AM
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Re: Nynaeve matched Moghedien when Nynaeve was not close to her full potential yet...
10/12/2010 08:07:05 PM
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Re: Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list...
18/11/2009 06:22:50 PM
- 971 Views
More or less agreed. I was right about Nynaeve!
18/11/2009 06:29:27 PM
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IMO...
18/11/2009 06:37:19 PM
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I don't know...
18/11/2009 06:56:10 PM
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I still think Alivia is below Lanfear's strength level...
18/11/2009 06:59:01 PM
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That just doesn't make sense...
18/11/2009 07:02:17 PM
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All of my instincts indeed argue that 4 of the Forsaken CANNOT be below Nynaeve, but...
18/11/2009 07:06:25 PM
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But why doesn't it make sense?
18/11/2009 08:47:42 PM
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Talaan, Alivia and Sharina reduced my estimation of Nynaeve dramatically...
18/11/2009 08:54:29 PM
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All this can be explained by the fact that Nynaeve was yet to reach her potential.
18/11/2009 09:25:41 PM
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I don't think...
18/11/2009 07:08:09 PM
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Damane never recieve special status...
18/11/2009 08:52:32 PM
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Good point...
18/11/2009 09:00:51 PM
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Thing is...
18/11/2009 09:10:45 PM
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Lanfear cannot even defeat Rand. Nynaeve wouldn't last a minute against him.
18/11/2009 09:13:06 PM
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And Rand couldn't defeat Lanfear. What's your point?
18/11/2009 09:26:06 PM
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He could. RJ stated it in a Q&A. Rand just couldn't bring himself to do it...
18/11/2009 09:45:18 PM
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But so could Lanfear, and both had angreal, confusing the situation considerably.
18/11/2009 09:47:25 PM
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My point was...
18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM
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If Tuon had the strongest...
18/11/2009 09:12:22 PM
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Sera must be stronger...
18/11/2009 09:25:00 PM
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There's no reason to be certain about it...
18/11/2009 09:28:26 PM
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Well, the Bloodknives are precisely Tuon's tools
18/11/2009 09:32:46 PM
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There are SIX women stronger than Nynaeve, and at least five are accounted for...
18/11/2009 09:46:28 PM
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There are six stronger women named on the list
19/11/2009 11:40:52 AM
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I'm not ignoring Sera!
19/11/2009 06:13:43 PM
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There are SIX women stronger than Nynaeve, and at least five are accounted for...
18/11/2009 09:46:29 PM
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But Alivia (while strong in the OP) is an old fraile lady on her deathbed. *NM*
18/11/2009 09:41:33 PM
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You were right about Nynaeve, I was right about Graendal! Well done!
18/11/2009 06:37:42 PM
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I have one problem with your list.
18/11/2009 06:36:02 PM
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RJ said the Forsaken ALWAYS overrate themselves...
18/11/2009 06:54:45 PM
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I totally agree. Mesaana is weaker than Semirhage. This was also confirmed by BS *NM*
18/11/2009 06:56:30 PM
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I'm sorry, but I find it mindblowing that you find this mindblowing.
18/11/2009 06:36:37 PM
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There is a side effect to all of this rearrangement...we may have to rethink the wonder girls.
18/11/2009 07:04:17 PM
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Damn. That's a thought I definitely DON'T relish. Thankfully...
18/11/2009 07:09:18 PM
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Helpless at her strength at the time, or helpless at Egwene's full potential? *NM*
18/11/2009 07:26:15 PM
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Egwene was forced, so she was already at her full potential when she made this comment. *NM*
18/11/2009 07:45:08 PM
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I admit she was forced, but how does that guarantee she was at full strength? *NM*
18/11/2009 08:06:40 PM
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I'm 90% sure it is stated somewhere... *NM*
18/11/2009 08:10:03 PM
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Egwene was at her full strength. Elayne comments on this in The Shadow Rising IIRC.
18/11/2009 08:34:37 PM
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Where does she say this?
18/11/2009 08:54:39 PM
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No, she explicitly refers to herself vs Moghedien...
18/11/2009 09:01:53 PM
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Here are the quotes...
18/11/2009 09:24:24 PM
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Oh come on. You're totally twisting that passage to suit your argument...
18/11/2009 09:54:56 PM
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I could say the same...
18/11/2009 10:50:44 PM
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So let me get this straight...
19/11/2009 06:44:03 AM
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What about Sammael? The debate about Sammael and Rahvin has been decided now too.
18/11/2009 08:03:35 PM
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Totally disagree...
18/11/2009 08:08:34 PM
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Dude, Rand is scared of Graendal...
18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM
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Disagree...
18/11/2009 09:09:45 PM
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Disagree back... for the last time though...
18/11/2009 09:39:25 PM
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About the top 6...
18/11/2009 10:08:37 PM
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And One Power Battles turn political on a regualr basis, do they?
18/11/2009 10:54:35 PM
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That's ridiculous...
19/11/2009 07:19:08 AM
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Re: That's ridiculous...
19/11/2009 08:08:14 AM
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If Rahvin were stronger...
18/11/2009 08:59:32 PM
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Graendal could not face down Rand. And if she thinks she can it is b/c she has an angreal. *NM*
18/11/2009 09:49:00 PM
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But Rand did not know of her angreal. *NM*
19/11/2009 12:03:21 AM
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Rand knows he can beat Graendal in a heads-up-duel. Graendal knows she would lose. *NM*
28/11/2009 10:07:27 PM
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Some more from Brandon...
19/11/2009 04:29:41 AM
- 985 Views
So we're back where we started?
19/11/2009 04:56:36 AM
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Re: Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list...
10/12/2010 07:55:51 PM
- 934 Views
we know from a direcet quote in TPoD that Nynaeve had not yet reached full strength
10/12/2010 08:36:50 PM
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Re: we know from a direcet quote in TPoD that Nynaeve had not yet reached full strength
10/12/2010 09:17:48 PM
- 998 Views
winning in TAR had nothing to do with OP strength... that was pure skill and later Moghedien lost!
11/12/2010 04:14:26 PM
- 951 Views