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Disagree back... for the last time though... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 18/11/2009 09:39:25 PM
We've been through this before. Basically, RJ said the top six Foresaken were the best at physical and political survival. If Moridin could wipe the floor with Graendal, he would have wiped the floor with her and forced a cour'sourva on her and made her do as he wished. He doesn't because she's a considerable threat.


Rand isn't scared of Graendal at all. He is scared that she might ESCAPE him if he confronted her.

And how could she do that, if he is so overwhelmingly strong?
Why not gate in on her, linked with Nynaeve? Surely he could have beaten her. If she escaped, he could easily follow her, like he did Rahvin.
That he did not even think this an option only proves one thing... Graendal is damn tough to beat.
RJ himself has confirmed that Rand could have ended the battle with Lanfear at the Docks if he was willing to kill a woman.

Where?
LTT/Rand think they could weave fire to kill Lanfear, but she's able to counter his unseen weaves. Why would she let a weave of fire slip by?
Rand would wipe the floor with Graendal.

Then why did he need to CK to beat her?
Graendal is weaker than Cyndane, who is weaker than Nynaeve.

Never had an argument with this.
Nynaeve is CONSIDERABLY weaker than Alivia, who is most proabably weaker than Lanfear.

Why probably weaker? This pedestal placement of Lanfear is mystifying and frustrating. She's uber strong. so is Rand. If someone can match Rand, someone can match Lanfear!

And Nynaeve was considerably weaker than Alivia in WH. Reanne said this, and we don't even know if she could tell a woman's potential. Nynaeve has grown much, since then.

And Rand could have defeated Lanfear at the Docks, if he wanted to, despite not being at full strength yet.

And he had an angreal, as did she, and we don't know which was stronger.
Also, you forget that Lanfear wasn't fighting to kill. She could have finished him up any time, but she was toying with him. Maybe Rand could have stopped that, but any attempt of his to kill he would have been countered.
Graendal would stand no chance against Rand. She acknowledged as much when she said she'd never face him head on if Rahvin and Ishamael fell before him.

Yes. She is talking about the fact that where generally there should be some doubt as to who would win, Rand always seems to win, be it Rahvin or Ishy. Clearly, more than OP strength and skill are at play.
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Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list... - 18/11/2009 05:56:58 PM 2172 Views
Sounds good - 18/11/2009 06:08:15 PM 1082 Views
Re: Sounds good - 18/11/2009 06:12:53 PM 1122 Views
Re: Someryn - 18/11/2009 06:20:44 PM 1129 Views
I acknowledge that possibility... - 18/11/2009 06:24:30 PM 1008 Views
Someryn implies that Graendal is stronger. - 19/11/2009 01:51:31 PM 1103 Views
Excellent point...I'd forgotten about that... - 19/11/2009 02:00:30 PM 1017 Views
As I understand it... - 18/11/2009 06:23:26 PM 1106 Views
My view is that the new list is just a revised one, after RJ changed his mind on some things... - 18/11/2009 06:28:53 PM 1149 Views
Agreed. - 18/11/2009 06:31:22 PM 960 Views
I suppose that's possible. *NM* - 18/11/2009 06:31:42 PM 766 Views
I agree with this interpretation on the new vs. old list - 18/11/2009 07:13:02 PM 1037 Views
Re: Sounds good - 18/11/2009 07:11:17 PM 956 Views
Also, a couple more questions, if I may... - 18/11/2009 07:18:50 PM 949 Views
Re: Also, a couple more questions, if I may... - 18/11/2009 07:23:45 PM 977 Views
One problem... - 18/11/2009 06:10:06 PM 1148 Views
No... - 18/11/2009 06:14:48 PM 1050 Views
That's not a problem. - 18/11/2009 06:31:37 PM 995 Views
Why on earth would there be multiple restrictions on Cyndane's strength? - 18/11/2009 06:47:56 PM 901 Views
Sorry buddy - 18/11/2009 07:36:00 PM 1024 Views
Re: Sorry buddy - 18/11/2009 09:49:01 PM 939 Views
But Nynaeve and Mogheiden were of equal strength - 18/11/2009 06:15:52 PM 1193 Views
Nynaeve matched Moghedien when Nynaeve was not close to her full potential yet... - 18/11/2009 06:19:07 PM 1230 Views
I agree...and I have a question regarding Moghedien. - 18/11/2009 06:30:07 PM 1038 Views
Cyndane has to be above Graendal. *NM* - 18/11/2009 06:33:16 PM 578 Views
You're right. I'll post new list below. *NM* - 18/11/2009 06:39:36 PM 598 Views
Was she? Nyn was mid20s and a wilder, I thought she had reached full strength - 18/11/2009 08:00:24 PM 1072 Views
She really hasn't had that much time channelling though. - 18/11/2009 08:07:31 PM 741 Views
Wilders rarely reach their full potential if they're blocked. *NM* - 18/11/2009 08:43:30 PM 618 Views
I know the Cleansing forced her a bit. - 18/11/2009 08:44:59 PM 1027 Views
That's been said before- anyone know where it says that in the text? - 19/11/2009 05:53:50 AM 810 Views
More or less agreed. I was right about Nynaeve! - 18/11/2009 06:29:27 PM 953 Views
IMO... - 18/11/2009 06:37:19 PM 1068 Views
I don't know... - 18/11/2009 06:56:10 PM 936 Views
I still think Alivia is below Lanfear's strength level... - 18/11/2009 06:59:01 PM 1247 Views
That just doesn't make sense... - 18/11/2009 07:02:17 PM 1064 Views
I agree that Lanfear and Alivia are tied. *NM* - 18/11/2009 07:06:19 PM 606 Views
All of my instincts indeed argue that 4 of the Forsaken CANNOT be below Nynaeve, but... - 18/11/2009 07:06:25 PM 895 Views
But why doesn't it make sense? - 18/11/2009 08:47:42 PM 794 Views
I don't think... - 18/11/2009 07:08:09 PM 1128 Views
Damane never recieve special status... - 18/11/2009 08:52:32 PM 924 Views
Good point... - 18/11/2009 09:00:51 PM 958 Views
Thing is... - 18/11/2009 09:10:45 PM 1008 Views
My point was... - 18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM 996 Views
I agree *NM* - 18/11/2009 09:10:46 PM 566 Views
If Tuon had the strongest... - 18/11/2009 09:12:22 PM 908 Views
Sera must be stronger... - 18/11/2009 09:25:00 PM 905 Views
There's no reason to be certain about it... - 18/11/2009 09:28:26 PM 950 Views
Well, the Bloodknives are precisely Tuon's tools - 18/11/2009 09:32:46 PM 906 Views
There are SIX women stronger than Nynaeve, and at least five are accounted for... - 18/11/2009 09:46:28 PM 954 Views
There are six stronger women named on the list - 19/11/2009 11:40:52 AM 963 Views
I'm not ignoring Sera! - 19/11/2009 06:13:43 PM 828 Views
You misunderstand me... - 19/11/2009 06:16:31 PM 917 Views
I doesn't make "sense". Let's leave it... - 19/11/2009 06:19:52 PM 907 Views
But Alivia (while strong in the OP) is an old fraile lady on her deathbed. *NM* - 18/11/2009 09:41:33 PM 601 Views
Pardon? Don't understand this really. *NM* - 19/11/2009 11:45:21 AM 443 Views
You keep saying Alivia was "a common damane" - 28/11/2009 08:58:42 PM 794 Views
You were right about Nynaeve, I was right about Graendal! Well done! - 18/11/2009 06:37:42 PM 1047 Views
Yes. This is one WoT debate coming to a close... - 18/11/2009 06:54:06 PM 817 Views
I have one problem with your list. - 18/11/2009 06:36:02 PM 1012 Views
RJ said the Forsaken ALWAYS overrate themselves... - 18/11/2009 06:54:45 PM 868 Views
Mesaana is cold and calculating. - 18/11/2009 07:03:49 PM 919 Views
I'm sorry, but I find it mindblowing that you find this mindblowing. - 18/11/2009 06:36:37 PM 956 Views
Some of us have been debating this for 5 years on Wotmania... - 18/11/2009 06:57:08 PM 1012 Views
I think it goes like this: - 18/11/2009 06:53:07 PM 951 Views
There is a side effect to all of this rearrangement...we may have to rethink the wonder girls. - 18/11/2009 07:04:17 PM 1015 Views
We'll have to re-read the sections where Moghedien is captured. - 18/11/2009 07:08:07 PM 916 Views
Damn. That's a thought I definitely DON'T relish. Thankfully... - 18/11/2009 07:09:18 PM 945 Views
Where does she say this? - 18/11/2009 08:54:39 PM 954 Views
No, she explicitly refers to herself vs Moghedien... - 18/11/2009 09:01:53 PM 952 Views
Here are the quotes... - 18/11/2009 09:24:24 PM 969 Views
Oh come on. You're totally twisting that passage to suit your argument... - 18/11/2009 09:54:56 PM 858 Views
I could say the same... - 18/11/2009 10:50:44 PM 880 Views
So let me get this straight... - 19/11/2009 06:44:03 AM 896 Views
No... - 19/11/2009 07:37:29 AM 950 Views
Look at it this way... - 19/11/2009 10:23:06 AM 923 Views
Dude, there were other quotes... - 19/11/2009 06:15:32 PM 831 Views
What about Sammael? The debate about Sammael and Rahvin has been decided now too. - 18/11/2009 08:03:35 PM 990 Views
Totally disagree... - 18/11/2009 08:08:34 PM 1038 Views
Re: Totally disagree... - 18/11/2009 08:22:07 PM 926 Views
Males likely go like this... - 18/11/2009 08:27:27 PM 885 Views
Dude, Rand is scared of Graendal... - 18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM 893 Views
Disagree... - 18/11/2009 09:09:45 PM 1005 Views
Disagree back... for the last time though... - 18/11/2009 09:39:25 PM 851 Views
About the top 6... - 18/11/2009 10:08:37 PM 934 Views
And One Power Battles turn political on a regualr basis, do they? - 18/11/2009 10:54:35 PM 978 Views
That's ridiculous... - 19/11/2009 07:19:08 AM 870 Views
Re: That's ridiculous... - 19/11/2009 08:08:14 AM 907 Views
Well... - 19/11/2009 10:29:45 AM 908 Views
This is getting idiotic... - 19/11/2009 06:19:08 PM 907 Views
Re: Dude, Rand is scared of Graendal... - 10/12/2010 07:31:18 PM 909 Views
If Rahvin were stronger... - 18/11/2009 08:59:32 PM 884 Views
Disagreement - 19/11/2009 01:39:49 AM 1008 Views
Some more from Brandon... - 19/11/2009 04:29:41 AM 907 Views
So we're back where we started? - 19/11/2009 04:56:36 AM 710 Views
Re: So we're back where we started? - 19/11/2009 05:18:15 AM 999 Views
Someone must ask him: Is Cyndane one of the 6 above Nynaeve. - 19/11/2009 05:35:10 AM 868 Views
My opinion: down this path lies insanity. - 19/11/2009 02:53:59 PM 945 Views
Thoughts - 19/11/2009 04:55:09 AM 1007 Views

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