What about Sammael? The debate about Sammael and Rahvin has been decided now too. - Edit 1
Before modification by Logain at 18/11/2009 08:12:20 PM
There's one potential problem here, and that is Sammael.
I personally think the women list goes like this:
Lanfear / Alivia / (unnamed character option 1)
Sharina / Talaan / Someryn / (unnamed character option 2)
Semirhage / Nynaeve
Cyndane / Mesaana option 1
Graendal / Mesaana option 2
Moghedien
Of importance is that Graendal is on level 5 of the women.
I think the men look like this:
100 - Ishamael / Rand
95 - Aginor(Osan'gar, Dashiva) / Demandred
90 - Rahvin
85 - Be'lal / Balthamel(Aran'gar) option 1
80 - Sammael / Balthamel (Aran'gar) option 2
75 - Asmodean
I know that goes against conventional theory, but I'll explain why I think Sammael was overestimated bigtime in the past. Note that I have Sammael on level 5 of the men.
Moridin says that when Graendal and Sammael are about to fight that he doesn't know who would win. This is one of those quotes that I just don't think we can ever disregard. I completely believe it to be true. He's an third party observant who has intimate knowledge of both Sammael and Graendal's one power abilities. Thus, I've always believed Sammael and Graendal to be pretty much equal.
Now, if it is true that Graendal and Sammael are equal (not in power, but in who would win) then with Rand on level 1, Sammael needs to be on level 5. I don't see how this is possible when we know that Sammael can make a gateway approximately 93.7% the size Rand can make. How do we square that?
Possibly Brandon has given us an answer. There are limits to what one person can do on his own. This could mean that once a person reaches 90 power, he can make a 4 x 4 gateway. A person with 95 power also can make a 4 x 4 gateway. In other words, you couldn't tell any difference between someone with 90 power and someone with 100 power if all you do is compare gateways. Each person could make a 4 x 4 gateway.
In other words, we've been assuming Rand's gateway size as the standard and dividing by 100. But what if we should have been diving by 90 (or some other number) instead of 100? I think that is the ONLY way to fit Sammael into the picture 5 levels below Rand.
Something else I'm certain about is that Rand increased in strength since his fight Sammael in book 7. So maybe why the fight between Rand and Sammael was so close was because, first, Sammael was on defense, and second because Rand was not at full strength yet. Rand was maybe at 80-90% his potential. In other words, Rand (at full strength) against Sammael would be no match. Rand (not at full strength) against Sammael was an equal battle that Rand almost lost, but for help from Moridin. Having Sammael somewhere between 80-85 power fits well with the idea that Sammael and Graendal are about evenly matched.
Having Sammael at 80-85 power also fits well if a channeler can make a 4 x 4 gateway once he/she reaches 90+ power.
We know Sammael has superior skill and tactics as a warrior compared to most others, so his slightly weaker power is made up for by his skill.
When Sammael's strength is compared, it is only book 7 and Rand was somewhere around 85% his total. Rand is stronger at the cleansing, and arguably stronger in tGS because he channels even more through the Choedan Kal. Because Sammael was almost as strong as Rand in book 7, Sammael is roughly about 80 power (level 5 on the male list, and Graendal happens to be at level 5 on the female list)
I think the debate about who is tougher, Sammael or Rahvin, is now at an end. Rahvin is tougher. Rand (with angreal in book 5 matches Rahvin). Rand without angreal in book 7 matches Sammael. We need Rahvin to fill a level between the highest potential (100) and Sammael at level 5. The male Forsaken look like this:
I personally think the women list goes like this:
Lanfear / Alivia / (unnamed character option 1)
Sharina / Talaan / Someryn / (unnamed character option 2)
Semirhage / Nynaeve
Cyndane / Mesaana option 1
Graendal / Mesaana option 2
Moghedien
Of importance is that Graendal is on level 5 of the women.
I think the men look like this:
100 - Ishamael / Rand
95 - Aginor(Osan'gar, Dashiva) / Demandred
90 - Rahvin
85 - Be'lal / Balthamel(Aran'gar) option 1
80 - Sammael / Balthamel (Aran'gar) option 2
75 - Asmodean
I know that goes against conventional theory, but I'll explain why I think Sammael was overestimated bigtime in the past. Note that I have Sammael on level 5 of the men.
Moridin says that when Graendal and Sammael are about to fight that he doesn't know who would win. This is one of those quotes that I just don't think we can ever disregard. I completely believe it to be true. He's an third party observant who has intimate knowledge of both Sammael and Graendal's one power abilities. Thus, I've always believed Sammael and Graendal to be pretty much equal.
Now, if it is true that Graendal and Sammael are equal (not in power, but in who would win) then with Rand on level 1, Sammael needs to be on level 5. I don't see how this is possible when we know that Sammael can make a gateway approximately 93.7% the size Rand can make. How do we square that?
Possibly Brandon has given us an answer. There are limits to what one person can do on his own. This could mean that once a person reaches 90 power, he can make a 4 x 4 gateway. A person with 95 power also can make a 4 x 4 gateway. In other words, you couldn't tell any difference between someone with 90 power and someone with 100 power if all you do is compare gateways. Each person could make a 4 x 4 gateway.
In other words, we've been assuming Rand's gateway size as the standard and dividing by 100. But what if we should have been diving by 90 (or some other number) instead of 100? I think that is the ONLY way to fit Sammael into the picture 5 levels below Rand.
Something else I'm certain about is that Rand increased in strength since his fight Sammael in book 7. So maybe why the fight between Rand and Sammael was so close was because, first, Sammael was on defense, and second because Rand was not at full strength yet. Rand was maybe at 80-90% his potential. In other words, Rand (at full strength) against Sammael would be no match. Rand (not at full strength) against Sammael was an equal battle that Rand almost lost, but for help from Moridin. Having Sammael somewhere between 80-85 power fits well with the idea that Sammael and Graendal are about evenly matched.
Having Sammael at 80-85 power also fits well if a channeler can make a 4 x 4 gateway once he/she reaches 90+ power.
We know Sammael has superior skill and tactics as a warrior compared to most others, so his slightly weaker power is made up for by his skill.
When Sammael's strength is compared, it is only book 7 and Rand was somewhere around 85% his total. Rand is stronger at the cleansing, and arguably stronger in tGS because he channels even more through the Choedan Kal. Because Sammael was almost as strong as Rand in book 7, Sammael is roughly about 80 power (level 5 on the male list, and Graendal happens to be at level 5 on the female list)
I think the debate about who is tougher, Sammael or Rahvin, is now at an end. Rahvin is tougher. Rand (with angreal in book 5 matches Rahvin). Rand without angreal in book 7 matches Sammael. We need Rahvin to fill a level between the highest potential (100) and Sammael at level 5. The male Forsaken look like this: