What about Sammael? The debate about Sammael and Rahvin has been decided now too.
Logain Send a noteboard - 18/11/2009 08:03:35 PM
There's one potential problem here, and that is Sammael.
I personally think the women list goes like this:
Lanfear / Alivia / (unnamed character option 1)
Sharina / Talaan / Someryn / (unnamed character option 2)
Semirhage / Nynaeve
Cyndane / Mesaana option 1
Graendal / Mesaana option 2
Moghedien
Of importance is that Graendal is on level 5 of the women.
I think the men look like this:
100 - Ishamael / Rand
95 - Aginor(Osan'gar, Dashiva) / Demandred
90 - Rahvin
85 - Be'lal / Balthamel(Aran'gar) option 1
80 - Sammael / Balthamel (Aran'gar) option 2
75 - Asmodean
I know that goes against conventional theory, but I'll explain why I think Sammael was overestimated bigtime in the past. Note that I have Sammael on level 5 of the men.
Moridin says that when Graendal and Sammael are about to fight that he doesn't know who would win. This is one of those quotes that I just don't think we can ever disregard. I completely believe it to be true. He's an third party observant who has intimate knowledge of both Sammael and Graendal's one power abilities. Thus, I've always believed Sammael and Graendal to be pretty much equal.
Now, if it is true that Graendal and Sammael are equal (not in power, but in who would win) then with Rand on level 1, Sammael needs to be on level 5. I don't see how this is possible when we know that Sammael can make a gateway approximately 93.7% the size Rand can make. How do we square that?
Possibly Brandon has given us an answer. There are limits to what one person can do on his own. This could mean that once a person reaches 90 power, he can make a 4 x 4 gateway. A person with 95 power also can make a 4 x 4 gateway. In other words, you couldn't tell any difference between someone with 90 power and someone with 100 power if all you do is compare gateways. Each person could make a 4 x 4 gateway.
In other words, we've been assuming Rand's gateway size as the standard and dividing by 100. But what if we should have been diving by 90 (or some other number) instead of 100? I think that is the ONLY way to fit Sammael into the picture at level 5.
Something else I'm certain about is that Rand increased in strength since he fought Sammael in book 7. So maybe why the fight between Rand and Sammael was so close was because, first, Sammael was on defense, and second because Rand was not at full strength yet. Rand was maybe at 80-90% his potential. In other words, Rand (at full strength) against Sammael would be no match. Rand (not at full strength) against Sammael was an equal battle that Rand almost lost, but for help from Moridin. Having Sammael somewhere between 80-85 power fits well with the idea that Sammael and Graendal are about evenly matched.
Having Sammael at 80-85 power also fits well if a channeler can make a 4 x 4 gateway once he/she reaches 90+ power.
We know Sammael has superior skill and tactics as a warrior compared to most others, so his slightly weaker power is made up for by his skill.
When Sammael's strength is compared, it is only book 7 and Rand was somewhere around 85% his potential. Rand is stronger at the cleansing, and arguably stronger in tGS because he channels even more through the Choedan Kal in tGS. Because Sammael was almost as strong as Rand in book 7 (according to the Asha'man who check on the border forts), Sammael is roughly about 80 power (level 5 on the male list, and Graendal happens to be at level 5 on the female list).
I think the debate about who is tougher, Sammael or Rahvin, is also now at an end. Rahvin is tougher. Rand (with angreal in book 5 matches Rahvin). Rand without angreal in book 7 matches Sammael. We need Rahvin to fill a level between the highest potential (100) and Sammael at level 5.
I personally think the women list goes like this:
Lanfear / Alivia / (unnamed character option 1)
Sharina / Talaan / Someryn / (unnamed character option 2)
Semirhage / Nynaeve
Cyndane / Mesaana option 1
Graendal / Mesaana option 2
Moghedien
Of importance is that Graendal is on level 5 of the women.
I think the men look like this:
100 - Ishamael / Rand
95 - Aginor(Osan'gar, Dashiva) / Demandred
90 - Rahvin
85 - Be'lal / Balthamel(Aran'gar) option 1
80 - Sammael / Balthamel (Aran'gar) option 2
75 - Asmodean
I know that goes against conventional theory, but I'll explain why I think Sammael was overestimated bigtime in the past. Note that I have Sammael on level 5 of the men.
Moridin says that when Graendal and Sammael are about to fight that he doesn't know who would win. This is one of those quotes that I just don't think we can ever disregard. I completely believe it to be true. He's an third party observant who has intimate knowledge of both Sammael and Graendal's one power abilities. Thus, I've always believed Sammael and Graendal to be pretty much equal.
Now, if it is true that Graendal and Sammael are equal (not in power, but in who would win) then with Rand on level 1, Sammael needs to be on level 5. I don't see how this is possible when we know that Sammael can make a gateway approximately 93.7% the size Rand can make. How do we square that?
Possibly Brandon has given us an answer. There are limits to what one person can do on his own. This could mean that once a person reaches 90 power, he can make a 4 x 4 gateway. A person with 95 power also can make a 4 x 4 gateway. In other words, you couldn't tell any difference between someone with 90 power and someone with 100 power if all you do is compare gateways. Each person could make a 4 x 4 gateway.
In other words, we've been assuming Rand's gateway size as the standard and dividing by 100. But what if we should have been diving by 90 (or some other number) instead of 100? I think that is the ONLY way to fit Sammael into the picture at level 5.
Something else I'm certain about is that Rand increased in strength since he fought Sammael in book 7. So maybe why the fight between Rand and Sammael was so close was because, first, Sammael was on defense, and second because Rand was not at full strength yet. Rand was maybe at 80-90% his potential. In other words, Rand (at full strength) against Sammael would be no match. Rand (not at full strength) against Sammael was an equal battle that Rand almost lost, but for help from Moridin. Having Sammael somewhere between 80-85 power fits well with the idea that Sammael and Graendal are about evenly matched.
Having Sammael at 80-85 power also fits well if a channeler can make a 4 x 4 gateway once he/she reaches 90+ power.
We know Sammael has superior skill and tactics as a warrior compared to most others, so his slightly weaker power is made up for by his skill.
When Sammael's strength is compared, it is only book 7 and Rand was somewhere around 85% his potential. Rand is stronger at the cleansing, and arguably stronger in tGS because he channels even more through the Choedan Kal in tGS. Because Sammael was almost as strong as Rand in book 7 (according to the Asha'man who check on the border forts), Sammael is roughly about 80 power (level 5 on the male list, and Graendal happens to be at level 5 on the female list).
I think the debate about who is tougher, Sammael or Rahvin, is also now at an end. Rahvin is tougher. Rand (with angreal in book 5 matches Rahvin). Rand without angreal in book 7 matches Sammael. We need Rahvin to fill a level between the highest potential (100) and Sammael at level 5.
This message last edited by Logain on 18/11/2009 at 08:12:20 PM
Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list...
18/11/2009 05:56:58 PM
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Sounds good
18/11/2009 06:08:15 PM
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Re: Sounds good
18/11/2009 06:12:53 PM
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Re: Someryn
18/11/2009 06:20:44 PM
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As I understand it...
18/11/2009 06:23:26 PM
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My view is that the new list is just a revised one, after RJ changed his mind on some things...
18/11/2009 06:28:53 PM
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Re: Sounds good
18/11/2009 07:11:17 PM
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Did it sound like Sanderson knew the names of all 6 women above Nynaeve?
18/11/2009 07:12:57 PM
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Re: Did it sound like Sanderson knew the names of all 6 women above Nynaeve?
18/11/2009 07:15:22 PM
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Also, a couple more questions, if I may...
18/11/2009 07:18:50 PM
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Re: Also, a couple more questions, if I may...
18/11/2009 07:23:45 PM
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But you said that you asked him whether Cyndane was one of the 6, and he said no.
18/11/2009 07:26:17 PM
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Re: But you said that you asked him whether Cyndane was one of the 6, and he said no.
18/11/2009 07:31:35 PM
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One problem...
18/11/2009 06:10:06 PM
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No...
18/11/2009 06:14:48 PM
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That's not a problem.
18/11/2009 06:31:37 PM
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Why on earth would there be multiple restrictions on Cyndane's strength?
18/11/2009 06:47:56 PM
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Sorry buddy
18/11/2009 07:36:00 PM
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Re: Sorry buddy
18/11/2009 09:49:01 PM
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Are you able to give any more detail on Sanderson's answer to your Cyndane question?
18/11/2009 10:02:17 PM
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But Nynaeve and Mogheiden were of equal strength
18/11/2009 06:15:52 PM
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Nynaeve matched Moghedien when Nynaeve was not close to her full potential yet...
18/11/2009 06:19:07 PM
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I agree...and I have a question regarding Moghedien.
18/11/2009 06:30:07 PM
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Was she? Nyn was mid20s and a wilder, I thought she had reached full strength
18/11/2009 08:00:24 PM
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As late as CoS, Nynaeve states that she is not close to her full potential yet. *NM*
18/11/2009 08:04:47 PM
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Wilders rarely reach their full potential if they're blocked. *NM*
18/11/2009 08:43:30 PM
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I know the Cleansing forced her a bit.
18/11/2009 08:44:59 PM
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That's been said before- anyone know where it says that in the text?
19/11/2009 05:53:50 AM
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Re: Nynaeve matched Moghedien when Nynaeve was not close to her full potential yet...
10/12/2010 08:07:05 PM
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Re: Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list...
18/11/2009 06:22:50 PM
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More or less agreed. I was right about Nynaeve!
18/11/2009 06:29:27 PM
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IMO...
18/11/2009 06:37:19 PM
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I don't know...
18/11/2009 06:56:10 PM
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I still think Alivia is below Lanfear's strength level...
18/11/2009 06:59:01 PM
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That just doesn't make sense...
18/11/2009 07:02:17 PM
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All of my instincts indeed argue that 4 of the Forsaken CANNOT be below Nynaeve, but...
18/11/2009 07:06:25 PM
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But why doesn't it make sense?
18/11/2009 08:47:42 PM
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Talaan, Alivia and Sharina reduced my estimation of Nynaeve dramatically...
18/11/2009 08:54:29 PM
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All this can be explained by the fact that Nynaeve was yet to reach her potential.
18/11/2009 09:25:41 PM
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I don't think...
18/11/2009 07:08:09 PM
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Damane never recieve special status...
18/11/2009 08:52:32 PM
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Good point...
18/11/2009 09:00:51 PM
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Thing is...
18/11/2009 09:10:45 PM
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Lanfear cannot even defeat Rand. Nynaeve wouldn't last a minute against him.
18/11/2009 09:13:06 PM
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And Rand couldn't defeat Lanfear. What's your point?
18/11/2009 09:26:06 PM
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He could. RJ stated it in a Q&A. Rand just couldn't bring himself to do it...
18/11/2009 09:45:18 PM
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But so could Lanfear, and both had angreal, confusing the situation considerably.
18/11/2009 09:47:25 PM
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My point was...
18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM
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If Tuon had the strongest...
18/11/2009 09:12:22 PM
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Sera must be stronger...
18/11/2009 09:25:00 PM
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There's no reason to be certain about it...
18/11/2009 09:28:26 PM
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Well, the Bloodknives are precisely Tuon's tools
18/11/2009 09:32:46 PM
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There are SIX women stronger than Nynaeve, and at least five are accounted for...
18/11/2009 09:46:28 PM
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There are six stronger women named on the list
19/11/2009 11:40:52 AM
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I'm not ignoring Sera!
19/11/2009 06:13:43 PM
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There are SIX women stronger than Nynaeve, and at least five are accounted for...
18/11/2009 09:46:29 PM
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But Alivia (while strong in the OP) is an old fraile lady on her deathbed. *NM*
18/11/2009 09:41:33 PM
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You were right about Nynaeve, I was right about Graendal! Well done!
18/11/2009 06:37:42 PM
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I have one problem with your list.
18/11/2009 06:36:02 PM
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RJ said the Forsaken ALWAYS overrate themselves...
18/11/2009 06:54:45 PM
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I totally agree. Mesaana is weaker than Semirhage. This was also confirmed by BS *NM*
18/11/2009 06:56:30 PM
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I'm sorry, but I find it mindblowing that you find this mindblowing.
18/11/2009 06:36:37 PM
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There is a side effect to all of this rearrangement...we may have to rethink the wonder girls.
18/11/2009 07:04:17 PM
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Damn. That's a thought I definitely DON'T relish. Thankfully...
18/11/2009 07:09:18 PM
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Helpless at her strength at the time, or helpless at Egwene's full potential? *NM*
18/11/2009 07:26:15 PM
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Egwene was forced, so she was already at her full potential when she made this comment. *NM*
18/11/2009 07:45:08 PM
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I admit she was forced, but how does that guarantee she was at full strength? *NM*
18/11/2009 08:06:40 PM
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I'm 90% sure it is stated somewhere... *NM*
18/11/2009 08:10:03 PM
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Egwene was at her full strength. Elayne comments on this in The Shadow Rising IIRC.
18/11/2009 08:34:37 PM
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Where does she say this?
18/11/2009 08:54:39 PM
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No, she explicitly refers to herself vs Moghedien...
18/11/2009 09:01:53 PM
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Here are the quotes...
18/11/2009 09:24:24 PM
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Oh come on. You're totally twisting that passage to suit your argument...
18/11/2009 09:54:56 PM
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I could say the same...
18/11/2009 10:50:44 PM
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So let me get this straight...
19/11/2009 06:44:03 AM
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What about Sammael? The debate about Sammael and Rahvin has been decided now too.
18/11/2009 08:03:35 PM
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Totally disagree...
18/11/2009 08:08:34 PM
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Dude, Rand is scared of Graendal...
18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM
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Disagree...
18/11/2009 09:09:45 PM
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Disagree back... for the last time though...
18/11/2009 09:39:25 PM
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About the top 6...
18/11/2009 10:08:37 PM
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And One Power Battles turn political on a regualr basis, do they?
18/11/2009 10:54:35 PM
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That's ridiculous...
19/11/2009 07:19:08 AM
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Re: That's ridiculous...
19/11/2009 08:08:14 AM
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If Rahvin were stronger...
18/11/2009 08:59:32 PM
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Graendal could not face down Rand. And if she thinks she can it is b/c she has an angreal. *NM*
18/11/2009 09:49:00 PM
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But Rand did not know of her angreal. *NM*
19/11/2009 12:03:21 AM
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Rand knows he can beat Graendal in a heads-up-duel. Graendal knows she would lose. *NM*
28/11/2009 10:07:27 PM
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Some more from Brandon...
19/11/2009 04:29:41 AM
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So we're back where we started?
19/11/2009 04:56:36 AM
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Re: Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list...
10/12/2010 07:55:51 PM
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we know from a direcet quote in TPoD that Nynaeve had not yet reached full strength
10/12/2010 08:36:50 PM
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Re: we know from a direcet quote in TPoD that Nynaeve had not yet reached full strength
10/12/2010 09:17:48 PM
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winning in TAR had nothing to do with OP strength... that was pure skill and later Moghedien lost!
11/12/2010 04:14:26 PM
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