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Well... Shannow Send a noteboard - 13/11/2009 09:25:08 AM

Lanfear's strength level on the female side seems to be far more freakish than Rand's strength on the male side.

What concrete evidence do we have for that? We know Lanfear thinks there can be no one stronger than her. That does not mean no one can equal her.

Among the male Forsaken, it seems that Rahvin, Sammael, Aginor, Demandred and Ishamael are all very close to Rand's strength level.

Perhaps because there are more men, and also because men cannot accurately measure their maximum strengths?
Also, Rand's level increased over time.
We can safely, I think, dismiss Sammael and Rhavin from the level just below Rand's. That's only Demandred and Aginor, I think.

In contrast, there is a significant gap between Lanfear and Graendal for example, large enough for Cyndane to fit into.

Why is it a significant gap if only one level exists in between?

Think this way:

Rand=Lanfear

Demandred=Cyndane

Graendal=Sammael.

Makes complete sense to me. And we see that the difference between Sammael and Demandred is not so great. They threaten each other with ease, and both don't feel uncomfortable around Rand.

And Graendal herself says it was very rare indeed, even in the Age of Legends, to encounter a woman that exceeded her in strength.

But not impossible...

So even Cyndane's level is extraordinary in Graendal's view. Lanfear therefore must be an absolute freak.

I'm sure Sammael would say the same about men stronger than him. And yes, Rand/Ishy are freaks. Doesn't stop men of nearly their strength from appearing in the form of Taim and Logain.
Why, then, should women of Lanfear's and Cyndane's strength be impossible?

So how do we solve this discrepancy on the female side.

There's no real discrepancy. As I see it, all we had missing was a woman of Cyndane's strength. Not surprising, since fewer Female Forsaken survived.

The following model, solves it, in my view, and also agrees with all the evidence we have thus far.

Lanfear
Cyndane, Semirhage, Alivia
Graendal, Mesaana, Nynaeve
Moghedien

That puts Lanfear at the top - check.
It puts Cyndane above Graendal, but weaker than Lanfear - check.
It puts Nynaeve equal to the average female Forsaken - check.
It makes Alivia stronger than Nynaeve - check.
It makes women stronger than Graendal very rare indeed - check.

It allows Mesaana to state that she compares relatively well with Semirhage, although some (unnamed) WEAKNESSES in her own repertoire is balanced out by other (unnamed) strengths she has over Semirhage - check.

I favour this model, and with the current evidence, it is as feasible as the one which puts Graendal higher than Semirhage.

What my model also does, is it reduces the gap between the majority of the female Forsaken and Lanfear. Because by reducing Graendal's level, it means Cyndane's level is also brought down, as the only comparison we have between her and the other female Forsaken is that she is stronger than Graendal.

To me this is a neater explanation, as the disproporational gap between Lanfear and the average female Forsaken is reduced.

Now, Cyndane is just one level above Mesaana, and at the same level as Semirhage, who in turn is just one level below Lanfear.

This makes the overall spread of the female Forsaken tighter. Which would make more sense, I believe.

I would agree with that, except for a few things...

1) Where do we place Sharina? Will people finally give credence to my idea that Alivia and Sharina are of the same strength?

2) While Graendal being weaker than Semirhage doesn't throw anything out of whack, something of the way Graendal speaks of Semi makes me suspect she is equal to her.

3) I still don't see why Alivia cannot match Lanfear.

4) Thematically, Smeirhage and Nynaeve being of equal strength makes sense. But this is not evidence, of course.

So here's my list, which is not very different from yours...

Lanfear, Alivia
Cyndane, Sharina (minimum level)
Graendal, Semirhage, Nynaeve
Mesaana, Talaan
Moghedien

This also solves one other issue with your list. If Cyndane equaled Semirhage, wouldn't Graendal have suspected for a moment that this was Semirhage reborn when she first saw her? She hadn't met Semi for some point in tPoD. Yet she does not think Cyndane could be Semi.

This is admittedly a tenuous point. They may have met, for all we know. But if Cyndane were equal to Semirhage, I think it'd make sense that someone would mention it somewhere.

1. I place Sharina at the same level as Alivia - when she reaches her full potential. I see no problem with that whatsoever.

2. In fact, the way Graendal speaks of Semirhage, possibly being the most POWERFUL member of the trio - makes me suspect that Semirhage is STRONGER than Graendal. After all, if Demandred is only a hair behind Lews Therin, how powerful must Semirhage be for Graendal to even briefly consider her more powerful than Demandred?

3. There is no evidence in either way on this matter, so let's leave this one for now.

4. Thematically, Nynaeve and Semirhage have no connection whatsoever. This has been a false suggestion, based solely on the Healer issue. In truth, Nynaeve's arch foe is Moghedien.

The thematic link between Nynaeve and Semirhage has been broken once and for all in tGS. Despite them both being in the same vicinity, with ample opportunity to interact and possibly even confront one another, there is zero interaction between them. Right up to the point of Semirhage's death, Nynaeve and Semirhage have no link whatsoever.

There is no thematic link between Nynaeve and Semirhage. There never has been, and now that Semirhage's dead, there never can be.

Lastly, my view of Semirhage has always been that she is the no.2 female Forsaken. Thematically, there are some links between her and Lanfear. She has a special hate for Lanfear, for some reason.

She always wears black because Lanfear always wears white. She hopes that time will give her Lanfear, to torture at leisure.

Bottomline, I think Semirhage enjoyed being respected and feared by all, and in her view, Lanfear was the only one who had greater stature than herself. And we know Lanfear's stature was based purely on her excpetional strength in the Power.

Reply to message

Semirhage's strength in the Power... Shannow - 12/11/2009 06:57:37 AM 1097 Views

No you did not... fionwe1987 - 12/11/2009 07:27:06 AM 715 Views

I'll look again tonight, but I'm sure Nynaeve made a comment... Shannow - 12/11/2009 07:33:29 AM 723 Views

Actually, Nynaeave is far stronger than Moghedian now LordScimitar - 12/11/2009 12:30:29 PM 677 Views

We DON'T know that Graendal is stronger than Semirhage and Mesaana... Shannow - 12/11/2009 12:48:32 PM 775 Views

Wasn't that rather meaningless? fionwe1987 - 12/11/2009 03:26:22 PM 730 Views

Inconsistency? Lord o' Salv - 12/11/2009 08:53:39 AM 647 Views

Holding a shield vs. making one... fionwe1987 - 12/11/2009 03:19:09 PM 613 Views

Don't they clearly say one single would suffice but they used 2 for Lord o' Salv - 13/11/2009 04:57:15 AM 551 Views

To HOLD her. Didn't I make the distinction clear? fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 05:04:58 AM 529 Views

Reducing the number of people holding the shield, reduces the strength of the shield correspondingly Shannow - 13/11/2009 07:15:24 AM 517 Views

Not necessarily true (Plus, another possibility)... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 07:43:37 AM 511 Views

I agree about the angreal, but not the 1 woman shield part... Shannow - 13/11/2009 07:50:26 AM 543 Views

Agree to disagree? fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 08:07:59 AM 519 Views

Sure, just a couple of points... Shannow - 13/11/2009 08:18:15 AM 606 Views

Re: Sure, just a couple of points... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 08:51:28 AM 586 Views

Interesting concept... Shannow - 13/11/2009 08:59:53 AM 619 Views

The answer lies in a fundamental difference between spinning and maintaining a weave... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 09:33:00 AM 614 Views

Yeah, I posted on this Sidious - 12/11/2009 08:53:26 PM 579 Views

Hmmm.... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 12:42:37 AM 619 Views

Mesaana thought she matched Semirhage catkin - 13/11/2009 01:45:09 AM 751 Views

Agree with many points Lord o' Salv - 13/11/2009 05:07:53 AM 601 Views

Re: Agree with many points fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 05:16:12 AM 515 Views

And that means nothing... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 05:08:44 AM 617 Views

Re: Hmmm.... Sidious - 13/11/2009 06:56:56 AM 556 Views

I think Sanderson just doesn't have the interest and knowledge of relative strength that RJ did.. Shannow - 13/11/2009 07:07:45 AM 546 Views

Re: Hmmm.... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 07:59:57 AM 610 Views

The reason behind our (certainly MY) hesitance to place Nynaeve too high, is Alivia... Shannow - 13/11/2009 08:04:51 AM 633 Views

There is a simple answer... skill... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 08:21:25 AM 629 Views

Except that... Shannow - 13/11/2009 08:49:15 AM 621 Views

We only assume that... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 09:08:56 AM 641 Views

Well... Shannow - 13/11/2009 09:25:08 AM 607 Views

fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 09:53:39 AM 525 Views

What about Sharina? Sidious - 13/11/2009 09:17:20 AM 530 Views

No evidence either way, but you leave a massive gap between Lanfear and the average Forsaken... Shannow - 13/11/2009 09:31:27 AM 632 Views

I don't think it's massive Sidious - 13/11/2009 09:46:27 AM 600 Views

I disagree with your last comment Shannow - 13/11/2009 09:58:03 AM 638 Views

Hmm... Sidious - 13/11/2009 03:57:48 PM 634 Views

Re: Hmm... Watcher - 13/11/2009 07:54:23 PM 617 Views

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<quote id="47256">
<quote id="47251"><quote id="47241">Lanfear's strength level on the female side seems to be far more freakish than Rand's strength on the male side.</quote>
What concrete evidence do we have for that? We know Lanfear thinks there can be no one stronger than her. That does not mean no one can equal her.

<quote>Among the male Forsaken, it seems that Rahvin, Sammael, Aginor, Demandred and Ishamael are all very close to Rand's strength level.</quote>
Perhaps because there are more men, and also because men cannot accurately measure their maximum strengths?
Also, Rand's level increased over time.
We can safely, I think, dismiss Sammael and Rhavin from the level just below Rand's. That's only Demandred and Aginor, I think.

<quote>In contrast, there is a significant gap between Lanfear and Graendal for example, large enough for Cyndane to fit into.</quote>
Why is it a significant gap if only one level exists in between?

Think this way:

Rand=Lanfear

Demandred=Cyndane

Graendal=Sammael.

Makes complete sense to me. And we see that the difference between Sammael and Demandred is not so great. They threaten each other with ease, and both don't feel uncomfortable around Rand.

<quote>And Graendal herself says it was very rare indeed, even in the Age of Legends, to encounter a woman that exceeded her in strength.</quote>
But not impossible...
<quote>So even Cyndane's level is extraordinary in Graendal's view. Lanfear therefore must be an absolute freak.</quote>
I'm sure Sammael would say the same about men stronger than him. And yes, Rand/Ishy are freaks. Doesn't stop men of nearly their strength from appearing in the form of Taim and Logain.
Why, then, should women of Lanfear's and Cyndane's strength be impossible?
 
<quote>So how do we solve this discrepancy on the female side.</quote>
There's no real discrepancy. As I see it, all we had missing was a woman of Cyndane's strength. Not surprising, since fewer Female Forsaken survived.
<quote>The following model, solves it, in my view, and also agrees with all the evidence we have thus far.

Lanfear
Cyndane, Semirhage, Alivia
Graendal, Mesaana, Nynaeve
Moghedien

That puts Lanfear at the top - check.
It puts Cyndane above Graendal, but weaker than Lanfear - check.
It puts Nynaeve equal to the average female Forsaken - check.
It makes Alivia stronger than Nynaeve - check.
It makes women stronger than Graendal very rare indeed - check.

It allows Mesaana to state that she compares relatively well with Semirhage, although some (unnamed) WEAKNESSES in her own repertoire is balanced out by other (unnamed) strengths she has over Semirhage - check.

I favour this model, and with the current evidence, it is as feasible as the one which puts Graendal higher than Semirhage.

What my model also does, is it reduces the gap between the majority of the female Forsaken and Lanfear. Because by reducing Graendal's level, it means Cyndane's level is also brought down, as the only comparison we have between her and the other female Forsaken is that she is stronger than Graendal.

To me this is a neater explanation, as the disproporational gap between Lanfear and the average female Forsaken is reduced.

Now, Cyndane is just one level above Mesaana, and at the same level as Semirhage, who in turn is just one level below Lanfear.

This makes the overall spread of the female Forsaken tighter. Which would make more sense, I believe.

</quote>

I would agree with that, except for a few things...

1) Where do we place Sharina? Will people finally give credence to my idea that Alivia and Sharina are of the same strength?

2) While Graendal being weaker than Semirhage doesn't throw anything out of whack, something of the way Graendal speaks of Semi makes me suspect she is equal to her.

3) I still don't see why Alivia cannot match Lanfear.

4) Thematically, Smeirhage and Nynaeve being of equal strength makes sense. But this is not evidence, of course.

So here's my list, which is not very different from yours...

Lanfear, Alivia
Cyndane, Sharina (minimum level)
Graendal, Semirhage, Nynaeve
Mesaana, Talaan
Moghedien

This also solves one other issue with your list. If Cyndane equaled Semirhage, wouldn't Graendal have suspected for a moment that this was Semirhage reborn when she first saw her? She hadn't met Semi for some point in tPoD. Yet she does not think Cyndane could be Semi.

This is admittedly a tenuous point. They may have met, for all we know. But if Cyndane were equal to Semirhage, I think it'd make sense that someone would mention it somewhere.</quote>

1. I place Sharina at the same level as Alivia - when she reaches her full potential. I see no problem with that whatsoever.

2. In fact, the way Graendal speaks of Semirhage, possibly being the most POWERFUL member of the trio - makes me suspect that Semirhage is STRONGER than Graendal. After all, if Demandred is only a hair behind Lews Therin, how powerful must Semirhage be for Graendal to even briefly consider her more powerful than Demandred?

3. There is no evidence in either way on this matter, so let's leave this one for now.

4. Thematically, Nynaeve and Semirhage have no connection whatsoever. This has been a false suggestion, based solely on the Healer issue. In truth, Nynaeve's arch foe is Moghedien.

The thematic link between Nynaeve and Semirhage has been broken once and for all in tGS. Despite them both being in the same vicinity, with ample opportunity to interact and possibly even confront one another, there is zero interaction between them. Right up to the point of Semirhage's death, Nynaeve and Semirhage have no link whatsoever.

There is no thematic link between Nynaeve and Semirhage. There never has been, and now that Semirhage's dead, there never can be.

Lastly, my view of Semirhage has always been that she is the no.2 female Forsaken. Thematically, there are some links between her and Lanfear. She has a special hate for Lanfear, for some reason.

She always wears black because Lanfear always wears white. She hopes that time will give her Lanfear, to torture at leisure.

Bottomline, I think Semirhage enjoyed being respected and feared by all, and in her view, Lanfear was the only one who had greater stature than herself. And we know Lanfear's stature was based purely on her excpetional strength in the Power.

</quote>

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