Interesting concept... - Edit 1
Before modification by Shannow at 13/11/2009 09:00:58 AM
It might have been 66%, sorry, it was some time ago that we spent so much time on this stuff. But I'm glad we're back to discussing it!
Yup!
Regarding Amys, I recall that there had at one time been much debate about the disputed position of Amys on the strength table. If I recall correctly, this is due to two conflicting quotes about Amys's strength back in tSR.
Well, the problem was, at one time Egwene said Amys is as strong as any woman in the Tower (and as she was hanging around the Tower's strongest at that time, this seems clear enough). Another time, she said Amys and Melaine were as strong as Theodrin and Faolain.
Now, Theodrin was traditionally placed as an equal to Sheriam and Leanne. But she could be as strong as Moiraine, removing the conflict.
But even if Amys is only as strong as Theodrin, she still equals Silviana. She still should have been able to hold Egwene's shield.
One quote said she was stronger than most Aes Sedai, and another seemed to indicate that she was only in the upper middle regions. I will have to go back and try to find it.
Not upper middle, just one step below the strongest. But that is doubtful. I'd rather take Egwene's word when she had Moiraine around to compare with Amys.
Also, Mealine in this book claims to be stronger than most Aes Sedai! Amys is definitely stronger, thus confirming to me that she is as strong as Moiraine.
Lastly, regarding the issue of the difference between a shield made by one person versus one made by a linked circle.
The example I used was Rand in the box, back in LoC. How is that different from the examples we are talking about now? Rand's shield was also created by a linked circle. In his case it consisted of 13 sisters.
His shield was also maintained by a reduced number of sisters. In his case it was 6. But the shield was still the result of a link. It wasn't made up of 6 individual shields.
The example I used was Rand in the box, back in LoC. How is that different from the examples we are talking about now? Rand's shield was also created by a linked circle. In his case it consisted of 13 sisters.
His shield was also maintained by a reduced number of sisters. In his case it was 6. But the shield was still the result of a link. It wasn't made up of 6 individual shields.
We don't know this, actually. He mentions six discrete soft points.
Also, when sisters are leaving to fight, he says three of those points become hard, while three remain soft. If they were part of a link, there is no way they would be able to partially tie off a shield. It cannot be one giant shield maintained by a link, since one sister cannot tie off her part.
The alternate explanation I've always believed is that 13 sisters link to make a giant shield. Then, six unlinked sisters pour their strength into the shield, from different entry points. Thus, taking shifts is easier. Also, the shield may be partially tied off when needed.
In this case, I think that while the shield does technically "weaken" because fewer women are contributing, it is still vastly different from a shield woven by six linked women then held by them.
And from a strength perspective, we saw that once the shield was down to only 3 sisters, he could break it. If he wasn't so weak and exhausted, he could probably have broken a shield held by 4. In CoS, when Logain is healed, the Aes Sedai say that he almost broke free from a circle held by 6 sisters, and that he might well have succeeded if it had been held by only 5.
Yep. I think what happens is that if fewer sisters are holding the shield, it is less reinforced, while still being more or less as strong.
Think of it as a film of water maintained by a number of pipes. The initial amount of water is provided by 13 pipes feeding into one conduit (the sister leading the circle). This is the only way the film can be formed at one go and contain all the water needed.
Thereafter, the film is held by six individual pipes prevent any erosion of the film from six different parts. Thirteen are no longer required because the rate of erosion of the film is not so great.
If three of those points are tied off, and only three pipes are now actively providing water, the amount of water in the film does not drop, but Rand now has fewer active sources to fight. Allowing him to escape.
One obscure quote proves this, though I've rarely seen anyone use it...
Logain jerked up onto his knees, snarling, and she embraced saidar and had him wrapped securely in flows of Air in the space of a heartbeat. The sisters shielding him had all their strength directed into that— another custom; you must use every bit of your strength to shield a man—but several could split their weaves,
and one might have diverted part to him if they thought he might harm her. She did not want to risk him being injured.
LoC, Chapter 52, Weaves of the Power.
Everything in this paragraph, from directing all your strength into the shield, to several sisters being able to split their weaves, makes no sense if only one woman were in charge of all that power.
If one of them can divert their power, they cannot possibly be in a circle!
My point is not the numbers, so much, as it is the fact that EVERY shield that involves multiple channelers is by default the result of a linked circle. Therefore, the example of Silviana, or the example of Semirhage is no different from that of Rand or Logain, or of Nynaeve being shielded by the two Black Sisters in CoS.
Nynaeve was shielded briefly by two women who linked to shield her and never let go of the link. So, two women were technically able to hold her, though only for some time.
These were weak Aes Sedai, mind you. With Cadsuane and co., a fairly strong circle probably made the initial shield on Semi, then one moderately strong sister like Corele, Sarene, Nesune or Merise could hold it.
The number is so low because this is women shielding women, and RJ told us that is easier than women shielding men.
They are ALL the results of links. So if the number of sisters are reduced, like in the cases of Logain and Rand, the evidence seems clear that the strength of the shield - even though it was the result of a circle - is reduced correspondingly.
Nope. See above.
In my view, the only two solutions for the Semirhage example are:
1. The sister had an angreal.
2. Sanderson made a mistake.
1. The sister had an angreal.
2. Sanderson made a mistake.
Both possible. But the third option may also be the case.
I've never before considered that multiple sisters spinning a shield would use any other approach than a circle.
Frankly, I don't understand how a SINGLE shield can be woven by mulitple, UNLINKED channelers. I thought the whole point of Asmodean's warning about the female linking advantage, and that a man needing to be wary around 13 sisters, is that they can link while a man cannot.
And Asmodean's warning was that 13 sisters LINKED could shield any man. Not 13 sisters individually.
Regarding the soft and hard points in Rand's shield, those were simply the access points of the various women in the circle, I thought. Now I'm not an expert on linking so your view is certainly interesting.
I just have a fundamental problem understanding how UNLINKED sisters can co-ordinate their channeling sufficiently to maintain a SINGLE shield on a man. In my view, it would have to be six seperate shields, or however many women are involved in creating it.
This needs further exploration, because you've raised an interesting point here.