Wheel of Time Messageboard: Sure, just a couple of points... by Shannow

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Sure, just a couple of points... Shannow Send a noteboard - 13/11/2009 08:18:15 AM

While I'm not saying the one woman shield is proved correct, I'm going to hold that it is a possibility. But lets move past that.

Two women could hold Nynaeve in CoS, and there is a big gap between Egwene and Nynaeve. Egwene admits this herself. So it might well be possible that 1 woman can hold Egwene. I cannot recall where Silviana lies on the strength table. My calculations in the past indicated that a woman could hold a shield on someone as long as you were approximately 60% as strong as the captive. But to shield them in the first place, with any degree of certainty, you had to be as much as 50% STRONGER than them.

I agree with that shielding theory. Silviana has been traditionally placed as an equal to Leanne, and she is, at the very least, as strong as Katerine, who is a very strong Aes Sedai.

What I'm saying is that in my view, if you are 60% as strong as someone, you should be able to hold an existing shield on them.

I remember the number we had all agreed to be 66%. But the principle is the same.

So if Silviana is a 25 on the strenghth scale, and Egwene is a 40, that makes Silviana just over 60% as strong as Egwene, and hence she should be able to hold the shield.

Then why couldn't Amys? Amys is as strong as Elaida and Moiraine, and there's no way Silviana is stronger. And Egwene is likely even stronger now than she was when Amys tried to hold her.
This was an issue I raised even when KoD was released, and I believe that the only explanation is that when the Shield was woven, Katerine and Barasine were linked.

Regarding an angreal. That changes the picture completely. 1 Woman with a powerful enough angreal could hold Rand himself.

Yup. Maybe Cadsuane gave her angreal to one of the sisters, but still wanted extra guards.

It might have been 66%, sorry, it was some time ago that we spent so much time on this stuff. But I'm glad we're back to discussing it!

Regarding Amys, I recall that there had at one time been much debate about the disputed position of Amys on the strength table. If I recall correctly, this is due to two conflicting quotes about Amys's strength back in tSR.

One quote said she was stronger than most Aes Sedai, and another seemed to indicate that she was only in the upper middle regions. I will have to go back and try to find it.

Lastly, regarding the issue of the difference between a shield made by one person versus one made by a linked circle.

The example I used was Rand in the box, back in LoC. How is that different from the examples we are talking about now? Rand's shield was also created by a linked circle. In his case it consisted of 13 sisters.

His shield was also maintained by a reduced number of sisters. In his case it was 6. But the shield was still the result of a link. It wasn't made up of 6 individual shields.

And from a strength perspective, we saw that once the shield was down to only 3 sisters, he could break it. If he wasn't so weak and exhausted, he could probably have broken a shield held by 4. In CoS, when Logain is healed, the Aes Sedai say that he almost broke free from a circle held by 6 sisters, and that he might well have succeeded if it had been held by only 5.

My point is not the numbers, so much, as it is the fact that EVERY shield that involves multiple channelers is by default the result of a linked circle. Therefore, the example of Silviana, or the example of Semirhage is no different from that of Rand or Logain, or of Nynaeve being shielded by the two Black Sisters in CoS.

They are ALL the results of links. So if the number of sisters are reduced, like in the cases of Logain and Rand, the evidence seems clear that the strength of the shield - even though it was the result of a circle - is reduced correspondingly.

In my view, the only two solutions for the Semirhage example are:

1. The sister had an angreal.
2. Sanderson made a mistake.

This message last edited by Shannow on 13/11/2009 at 08:19:13 AM

Edit 1 by Shannow on 13/11/2009 at 08:19:13 AM

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Semirhage's strength in the Power... Shannow - 12/11/2009 06:57:37 AM 1084 Views

No you did not... fionwe1987 - 12/11/2009 07:27:06 AM 703 Views

I'll look again tonight, but I'm sure Nynaeve made a comment... Shannow - 12/11/2009 07:33:29 AM 708 Views

Actually, Nynaeave is far stronger than Moghedian now LordScimitar - 12/11/2009 12:30:29 PM 661 Views

We DON'T know that Graendal is stronger than Semirhage and Mesaana... Shannow - 12/11/2009 12:48:32 PM 763 Views

Wasn't that rather meaningless? fionwe1987 - 12/11/2009 03:26:22 PM 714 Views

Inconsistency? Lord o' Salv - 12/11/2009 08:53:39 AM 635 Views

Holding a shield vs. making one... fionwe1987 - 12/11/2009 03:19:09 PM 600 Views

Don't they clearly say one single would suffice but they used 2 for Lord o' Salv - 13/11/2009 04:57:15 AM 536 Views

To HOLD her. Didn't I make the distinction clear? fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 05:04:58 AM 518 Views

Reducing the number of people holding the shield, reduces the strength of the shield correspondingly Shannow - 13/11/2009 07:15:24 AM 505 Views

Not necessarily true (Plus, another possibility)... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 07:43:37 AM 501 Views

I agree about the angreal, but not the 1 woman shield part... Shannow - 13/11/2009 07:50:26 AM 530 Views

Agree to disagree? fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 08:07:59 AM 503 Views

Sure, just a couple of points... Shannow - 13/11/2009 08:18:15 AM 590 Views

Re: Sure, just a couple of points... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 08:51:28 AM 571 Views

Interesting concept... Shannow - 13/11/2009 08:59:53 AM 602 Views

The answer lies in a fundamental difference between spinning and maintaining a weave... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 09:33:00 AM 599 Views

Yeah, I posted on this Sidious - 12/11/2009 08:53:26 PM 562 Views

Hmmm.... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 12:42:37 AM 609 Views

Mesaana thought she matched Semirhage catkin - 13/11/2009 01:45:09 AM 742 Views

Agree with many points Lord o' Salv - 13/11/2009 05:07:53 AM 589 Views

Re: Agree with many points fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 05:16:12 AM 504 Views

And that means nothing... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 05:08:44 AM 607 Views

Re: Hmmm.... Sidious - 13/11/2009 06:56:56 AM 539 Views

I think Sanderson just doesn't have the interest and knowledge of relative strength that RJ did.. Shannow - 13/11/2009 07:07:45 AM 532 Views

Re: Hmmm.... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 07:59:57 AM 595 Views

The reason behind our (certainly MY) hesitance to place Nynaeve too high, is Alivia... Shannow - 13/11/2009 08:04:51 AM 618 Views

There is a simple answer... skill... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 08:21:25 AM 614 Views

Except that... Shannow - 13/11/2009 08:49:15 AM 606 Views

We only assume that... fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 09:08:56 AM 627 Views

Well... Shannow - 13/11/2009 09:25:08 AM 596 Views

fionwe1987 - 13/11/2009 09:53:39 AM 509 Views

What about Sharina? Sidious - 13/11/2009 09:17:20 AM 517 Views

No evidence either way, but you leave a massive gap between Lanfear and the average Forsaken... Shannow - 13/11/2009 09:31:27 AM 621 Views

I don't think it's massive Sidious - 13/11/2009 09:46:27 AM 587 Views

I disagree with your last comment Shannow - 13/11/2009 09:58:03 AM 622 Views

Hmm... Sidious - 13/11/2009 03:57:48 PM 617 Views

Re: Hmm... Watcher - 13/11/2009 07:54:23 PM 602 Views

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<quote id="47237">
<quote id="47234">While I'm not saying the one woman shield is proved correct, I'm going to hold that it is a possibility. But lets move past that.

<quote>Two women could hold Nynaeve in CoS, and there is a big gap between Egwene and Nynaeve. Egwene admits this herself. So it might well be possible that 1 woman can hold Egwene. I cannot recall where Silviana lies on the strength table. My calculations in the past indicated that a woman could hold a shield on someone as long as you were approximately 60% as strong as the captive. But to shield them in the first place, with any degree of certainty, you had to be as much as 50% STRONGER than them.</quote>
I agree with that shielding theory. Silviana has been traditionally placed as an equal to Leanne, and she is, at the very least, as strong as Katerine, who is a very strong Aes Sedai.
<quote>What I'm saying is that in my view, if you are 60% as strong as someone, you should be able to hold an existing shield on them.</quote>
I remember the number we had all agreed to be 66%. But the principle is the same.
<quote>So if Silviana is a 25 on the strenghth scale, and Egwene is a 40, that makes Silviana just over 60% as strong as Egwene, and hence she should be able to hold the shield.</quote>
Then why couldn't Amys? Amys is as strong as Elaida and Moiraine, and there's no way Silviana is stronger. And Egwene is likely even stronger now than she was when Amys tried to hold her.
This was an issue I raised even when KoD was released, and I believe that the only explanation is that when the Shield was woven, Katerine and Barasine were linked.
<quote>Regarding an angreal. That changes the picture completely. 1 Woman with a powerful enough angreal could hold Rand himself.</quote>
Yup. Maybe Cadsuane gave her angreal to one of the sisters, but still wanted extra guards.</quote>

It might have been 66%, sorry, it was some time ago that we spent so much time on this stuff. But I'm glad we're back to discussing it!

Regarding Amys, I recall that there had at one time been much debate about the disputed position of Amys on the strength table. If I recall correctly, this is due to two conflicting quotes about Amys's strength back in tSR.

One quote said she was stronger than most Aes Sedai, and another seemed to indicate that she was only in the upper middle regions. I will have to go back and try to find it.

Lastly, regarding the issue of the difference between a shield made by one person versus one made by a linked circle.

The example I used was Rand in the box, back in LoC. How is that different from the examples we are talking about now? Rand's shield was also created by a linked circle. In his case it consisted of 13 sisters.

His shield was also maintained by a reduced number of sisters. In his case it was 6. But the shield was still the result of a link. It wasn't made up of 6 individual shields.

And from a strength perspective, we saw that once the shield was down to only 3 sisters, he could break it. If he wasn't so weak and exhausted, he could probably have broken a shield held by 4. In CoS, when Logain is healed, the Aes Sedai say that he almost broke free from a circle held by 6 sisters, and that he might well have succeeded if it had been held by only 5.

My point is not the numbers, so much, as it is the fact that EVERY shield that involves multiple channelers is by default the result of a linked circle. Therefore, the example of Silviana, or the example of Semirhage is no different from that of Rand or Logain, or of Nynaeve being shielded by the two Black Sisters in CoS.

They are ALL the results of links. So if the number of sisters are reduced, like in the cases of Logain and Rand, the evidence seems clear that the strength of the shield - even though it was the result of a circle - is reduced correspondingly.

In my view, the only two solutions for the Semirhage example are:

1. The sister had an angreal.
2. Sanderson made a mistake.
</quote>

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