Wheel of Time Messageboard: This is a ridiculously idealistic viewpoint... by fionwe1987

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This is a ridiculously idealistic viewpoint... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 11/11/2009 06:31:14 AM

Who needs to trust them, if you have the means to fight them? The Aes Sedai can get away with anything they want regardless of what Oaths they swear. With their monopoly on the One Power, who can stop their elite warriors with enhanced abilities from killing anyone they want dead? And if someone dares to resist the assault of a warder and defends himself, the sister is freed of all restraint by the Oath to kill her target.

And you seriously believe the Hall and Amyrlin will not interfere in such a circumstance?

' />2' />
Do you remember that Aes Sedai, if tried and found guilty by any common magistrate, are not saved by the Tower? If Aes Sedai could simply have their Warder attempt to murder whomever they want and then use the OP in his "defense", they wouldn't have to worry about magistrates, and places like Tear and Amadicia would not have existed.

The Oath against lying does not make them more honest, it only protects them from the consequences of dishonesty - disbelief. No one can ignore or refute an Aes Sedai who wants to make people believe the truth, no matter how severely she has abused people's trust in the past. As for the weapon Oaths, they protects the Tower more than anyone else, because it effectively prevents the Aes Sedai from giving genuine aid to their allies, and allowing them to claim credit for anything they want. Side A has an Aes Sedai advisor, Side B has an Aes Sedai lying low in their camp in secret. Side A wins, the Aes Sedai takes all the credit for her timely advice, and implies the sister found in Side B's tent was actually working with her to hand the victory to Side A. 'No, we can't give you details! Aes Sedai do not use the Power as a weapon, so we must work subtly behind the scenes, and such methods must remain secret.' Or if Side B wins, it HAS to be through the machinations of their secret Aes Sedai counselor. How else could they have defeated Side A which had an Aes Sedai openly working with them? See above re: the methods used to aid Side B.
The final Oath, against making weapons, is also for the benefit of the Tower in another way - it prevents any sister from making anything that would give normal people a way to oppose the Tower, such as happened in Seanchan.

While your analysis of the effects of the Oaths is entirely correct, I'm failing to see what is so terribly bad about this. It isn't as if the rulers and the nobles are unaware of these tactics of the Tower!
Nor can I see how two Towers will solve this issue. Both will attempt the same tactics, and the only change will be added confusion for the non-channelers.
Sure, one Tower may support one faction and the other not... but how is that an improvement over the current situation?

Don't go looking at the Oaths like they protect the world from dangerous channelers. The only real protection is other channelers who are ready to take down a potentially abusive channeler to gain credit or advantages over the bad channeler's organization. Channeler running amuck? Have the local magistrate whistle up a detachment from the National Channeler Corps to deal with the problem, or hire a channeler from Channeling Associates LLC. to protect your town from him. Presumably people could also hire out defenses from such a source. Channelers could weave alarm wards around homes, or ward farms against vermin or weeds, or fire-retardant wards or any number of things. When there is profit involved, there is no limit to what human ingenuity can provide. The more diverse the channeling entities are, the less chance there is for any one to oppress people. And when the channelers are not a monolithic organization with oppressive clout, they can't use their influence to punish ordinary people who manage to defy their edicts with an arrow in the back or a knife in the dark.

What a load of horseshit! In your painted scenario, all that will happen is that the Channeling group with the greatest knowledge political power will come out on top, intimidate others, and rule with less restrictions than the Tower does today. Even if it boils down to even competition between a few strong organizations, the situation for the common man is in no way better. What is to stop these different organizations (affiliated to different nations, if you will) from believing they are above the law and the common people? They can carry on their conflicts, using the resources of nations, uncaring of the deaths of common people, scheming and fighting to be on top. Exactly what happened in Seanchan, remember?

While there is a lot of hypocrisy and folly in the Tower, a magistrate, in the current way of life, does not need channelers from some group or another to enforce his or her will.

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/Miscellaneous: A better ending to the Tower struggle? Cannoli - 11/11/2009 03:30:40 AM 1391 Views

Re: /Miscellaneous: A better ending to the Tower struggle? artois - 11/11/2009 04:00:00 AM 596 Views

Personal aside re: Egwene Cannoli - 11/11/2009 04:08:46 AM 774 Views

Re: Personal aside re: Egwene artois - 11/11/2009 04:29:58 AM 599 Views

Nuclear weapons were only deployed when ONE country had them. Never since. Cannoli - 11/11/2009 06:15:23 AM 598 Views

This is a ridiculously idealistic viewpoint... fionwe1987 - 11/11/2009 06:31:14 AM 711 Views

Re: This is a ridiculously idealistic viewpoint... Cannoli - 11/11/2009 08:35:07 AM 617 Views

The World is messy artois - 11/11/2009 06:42:16 AM 531 Views

And without a structure, how much damage can any individual do? Cannoli - 11/11/2009 08:40:53 AM 552 Views

I must say... fionwe1987 - 11/11/2009 06:00:18 AM 698 Views

Cannoli is the Perez Hilton of WoT. Pretty obvious. Bookwyrm - 11/11/2009 06:11:45 AM 676 Views

You're being absurd! Cannoli - 11/11/2009 07:44:06 AM 864 Views

Rhuidean? artois - 11/11/2009 08:05:43 AM 567 Views

Re: Rhuidean? Cannoli - 11/11/2009 08:42:37 AM 605 Views

I think that Cannoli is the Man, but... Team Aan'allein - 13/11/2009 02:30:03 PM 503 Views

Channelers making ter'angreal for ordinary people to use (a common AoL practice, BTW) is insane? *NM* Cannoli - 13/11/2009 03:51:33 PM 208 Views

If I recall correctly- those were the last of the 'true' Aes Sedai. Chas - 11/11/2009 06:02:38 PM 594 Views

Actually the BWB or RJ said no AoL Aes Sedai survived the Breaking. Cannoli - 12/11/2009 02:32:36 AM 541 Views

The Aes Sedai in Rhuidean may have been an exception Sidious - 12/11/2009 04:15:32 AM 500 Views

Also, "The Breaking" lasted a long time beetnemesis - 12/11/2009 07:16:57 AM 487 Views

Technically, the Breaking ended when the last Male AS died, so female AS could survive past it *NM* redhand - 12/11/2009 03:42:01 PM 220 Views

Yes, but they did not. *NM* Cannoli - 13/11/2009 03:50:18 PM 240 Views

That could be true but I seem to recall it being said/implied that they were tasked with their duty Chas - 12/11/2009 11:29:33 PM 541 Views

The thing is ... Bookwyrm - 11/11/2009 06:05:58 AM 632 Views

Agree and Disagree artois - 11/11/2009 06:30:54 AM 499 Views

We can hope... but I honestly don't see it happening. It's complicated. beetnemesis - 11/11/2009 06:47:27 AM 638 Views

You might be right but... artois - 11/11/2009 07:08:19 AM 543 Views

Re: You might be right but... Myrdhyn - 12/11/2009 06:37:48 PM 501 Views

Why don't you point to the place where I am prescribing a course of action for the immediate future? Cannoli - 11/11/2009 08:03:07 AM 649 Views

You answered your own question beetnemesis - 11/11/2009 06:32:17 AM 519 Views

It wouldn's work in the westlands AgentOrange - 11/11/2009 01:13:54 PM 514 Views

Well, hopefully there would be people to stop her, just like in the real world. *NM* Cannoli - 12/11/2009 02:58:54 AM 245 Views

Anyone passing the Accepted Test must believe in a WT supremacy, redhand - 11/11/2009 01:45:25 PM 516 Views

Re: Anyone passing the Accepted Test must believe in a WT supremacy, Cannoli - 12/11/2009 02:57:55 AM 615 Views

So, what you're saying is that Aes Sedai should actually live up to their name? Chas - 11/11/2009 05:33:50 PM 547 Views

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<quote id="46100">
<quote id="46096"> Who needs to trust them, if you have the means to fight them?  The Aes Sedai can get away with anything they want regardless of what Oaths they swear.  With their monopoly on the One Power, who can stop their elite warriors with enhanced abilities from killing anyone they want dead?  And if someone dares to resist the assault of a warder and defends himself, the sister is freed of all restraint by the Oath to kill her target.</quote>
And you seriously believe the Hall and Amyrlin will not interfere in such a circumstance?}:(2
Do you remember that Aes Sedai, if tried and found guilty by any common magistrate, are not saved by the Tower? If Aes Sedai could simply have their Warder attempt to murder whomever they want and then use the OP in his "defense", they wouldn't have to worry about magistrates, and places like Tear and Amadicia would not have existed.
<quote> The Oath against lying does not make them more honest, it only protects them from the consequences of dishonesty - disbelief.  No one can ignore or refute an Aes Sedai who wants to make people believe the truth, no matter how severely she has abused people's trust in the past.  As for the weapon Oaths, they protects the Tower more than anyone else, because it effectively prevents the Aes Sedai from giving genuine aid to their allies, and allowing them to claim credit for anything they want.  Side A has an Aes Sedai advisor, Side B has an Aes Sedai lying low in their camp in secret.  Side A wins, the Aes Sedai takes all the credit for her timely advice, and implies the sister found in Side B's tent was actually working with her to hand the victory to Side A.  'No, we can't give you details!  Aes Sedai do not use the Power as a weapon, so we must work subtly behind the scenes, and such methods must remain secret.'  Or if Side B wins, it HAS to be through the machinations of their secret Aes Sedai counselor.  How else could they have defeated Side A which had an Aes Sedai openly working with them?  See above re: the methods used to aid Side B.  
The final Oath, against making weapons, is also for the benefit of the Tower in another way - it prevents any sister from making anything that would give normal people a way to oppose the Tower, such as happened in Seanchan.</quote>
While your analysis of the effects of the Oaths is entirely correct, I'm failing to see what is so terribly bad about this. It isn't as if the rulers and the nobles are unaware of these tactics of the Tower!
Nor can I see how two Towers will solve this issue. Both will attempt the same tactics, and the only change will be added confusion for the non-channelers.
Sure, one Tower may support one faction and the other not... but how is that an improvement over the current situation?
<quote>Don't go looking at the Oaths like they protect the world from dangerous channelers.  The only real protection is other channelers who are ready to take down a potentially abusive channeler to gain credit or advantages over the bad channeler's organization.  Channeler running amuck?  Have the local magistrate whistle up a detachment from the National Channeler Corps to deal with the problem, or hire a channeler from Channeling Associates LLC. to protect your town from him.  Presumably people could also hire out defenses from such a source.  Channelers could weave alarm wards around homes, or ward farms against vermin or weeds, or fire-retardant wards or any number of things.  When there is profit involved, there is no limit to what human ingenuity can provide.  The more diverse the channeling entities are, the less chance there is for any one to oppress people.  And when the channelers are not a monolithic organization with oppressive clout, they can't use their influence to punish ordinary people who manage to defy their edicts with an arrow in the back or a knife in the dark.  </quote>
What a load of horseshit! In your painted scenario, all that will happen is that the Channeling group with the greatest knowledge political power will come out on top, intimidate others, and rule with less restrictions than the Tower does today. Even if it boils down to even competition between a few strong organizations, the situation for the common man is in no way better. What is to stop these different organizations (affiliated to different nations, if you will) from believing they are above the law and the common people? They can carry on their conflicts, using the resources of nations, uncaring of the deaths of common people, scheming and fighting to be on top. Exactly what happened in Seanchan, remember?

While there is a lot of hypocrisy and folly in the Tower, a magistrate, in the current way of life, does not <i>need</i> channelers from some group or another to enforce his or her will. 
</quote>

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