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Generally agree. Joel Send a noteboard - 06/11/2009 09:07:57 AM

OK - a bit of a mixed bag here, but first post here since wotmania so forgive me.

So we now know that Rand has access to the True Power - what do you think is the significance of it? I'm thinking something along the lines of:

1. True Power could be used to replace Saidin as the power that "touched the dark one" when sealing him back up.

That's what I think, too. It's the only way to avoid re-tainting the Source. Rands question to LTT about whether the Taint was caused by the absence of women misses the point. If the women had been involved it simply would've tainted both halves of the One Power.

2. True Power could be used to kill the Dark One altogether as Rand seems to be considering more in this book.

I tend to agree here as well, even though I don't think the DO can be killed and existence preserved. It looks like in Jordans world the Creator needs the DO in much the way saidin needs saidar. After I read that section, however, I found myself thinking that if the One Power is that of the Creator and the True Power is that of the DO, and if the two are coeval, then the total strength of the Creator is just equal to that of the DO--but they're combined strength is twice as great. Using both in concert might be able to destroy him--if Rand can find a way to channel the True Power and the One Power at the same time.

I doubt that's how things will go though. My suspicion is Jordan's just setting up for lots of nastiness now that Rand is evidently linked to the DO himself via the TP. I can't help wondering what will result from that if he forms a circle with other channelers. What's odd, and says something about how closely Ishy and Rand are linked, is that you can't channel the TP without the DOs permission, and he definitely never gave that to Rand.

3. It's just there to show how close Rand was getting to the Dark One himself. i.e. more like Moridin every day.

No, here I disagree. I don't think they're all that close at all, Rand's just linked to Ishy now, and the two of them are becoming very close in many ways. Given that, no surprise Rand's developing an affinity for the DO in some ways, too, but the real link is with Ishy.

Also - during Rand's epiphany when he's questioning why he's fighting, he comes onto the subject of love, and how he's doing this all again to have a second chance. He mentions that "she might have been reborn". which i took to mean Ilyena. What do you think the significance of this is? Could it go back to the old theory that Ilyena was reborn into three bodies (i.e. Avi, Elayne and Min?). Or just musing on Rand's part?

Maybe, but I doubt it. That basically means souls can be split and recombined into other souls, and that doesn't track for me. Doesn't square with most views of transmigration, and blows the concept of "The Dragon Reborn" into tiny shards. No, if anything I'd say Elayne is Ilyena Sunhair Reborn. However, the fact LTT has never shown any recognition of that makes it dubious.

and now that the Choedan Kal is gone, the importance of the chapter where Min and Caddy are talking about the Callandor are more clear. But Rand's clearly going to need that kind of power in the battle with the dark one - why destroy the Choedan Kal? Was it just Rand's way to showing that he shouldn't have that kind of power so readily available? Or do you think there was some other significance?

No, I think that's exactly what it is. In any but a fictional setting it would be monumentally stupid, but since Jordan's writing the plot Rand didn't just kiss off any hope of victory.

Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
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True Power, Ilyena, and significance of the Choedan Kal thebestrob - 30/10/2009 02:57:09 PM 2788 Views

Re: True Power, Ilyena, and significance of the Choedan Kal Myrdhyn - 30/10/2009 03:05:52 PM 990 Views

I agree with you Sidious - 30/10/2009 03:24:22 PM 1108 Views

don't forget you can't touch the true power without the DO's permission mazza3 - 30/10/2009 03:31:25 PM 947 Views

I think he will overlook it Sidious - 30/10/2009 03:46:25 PM 922 Views

It also might be that Rand used Moridin as a conduit, making the DO's permission irrelevant. RandAllThor - 30/10/2009 03:58:04 PM 876 Views

Indeed... Moridin is definitely worried about the connection Sidious - 30/10/2009 03:59:59 PM 978 Views

Right RandAllThor - 30/10/2009 04:06:26 PM 1076 Views

i agree it was def in the DO's best interests to give it to rand THEN, just not when.... mazza3 - 30/10/2009 05:57:03 PM 991 Views

Seems to me destroying the DO with balefire would take a force equal to his. The Name With No Man - 06/11/2009 09:57:47 AM 719 Views

I think the TP IS the DO - sealing the Bore with it is illogical and impossible. Lord Haart - 27/11/2009 12:13:29 AM 684 Views

Re: True Power, Ilyena, and significance of the Choedan Kal LoialT - 30/10/2009 03:28:06 PM 2049 Views

Re: True Power, Ilyena, and significance of the Choedan Kal thebestrob - 30/10/2009 03:36:00 PM 1037 Views

Re: True Power, Ilyena, and significance of the Choedan Kal LoialT - 30/10/2009 09:48:46 PM 861 Views

where'd you get the number of Rand's Asha'man? Deadsy - 30/10/2009 10:12:00 PM 735 Views

Re: where'd you get the number of Rand's Asha'man? LoialT - 31/10/2009 12:28:48 AM 749 Views

I must be confused then cougar10 - 30/10/2009 06:11:38 PM 829 Views

No... you're right. beetnemesis - 30/10/2009 07:02:05 PM 788 Views

Hello! The TP can only be used with permission! fionwe1987 - 30/10/2009 10:45:58 PM 873 Views

Nope Sidious - 31/10/2009 05:18:03 AM 1260 Views

I'm sorry that's wrong... fionwe1987 - 31/10/2009 08:58:14 AM 790 Views

Believe what you want Sidious - 31/10/2009 09:08:52 AM 794 Views

No, he's right beetnemesis - 31/10/2009 04:59:34 PM 925 Views

That's what I said *NM* Sidious - 31/10/2009 05:24:55 PM 381 Views

I don't need your permission for that... fionwe1987 - 31/10/2009 09:57:34 PM 727 Views

Re: I don't need your permission for that... Sidious - 01/11/2009 06:54:20 AM 722 Views

You are incorrect darius_sedai - 27/12/2009 10:44:36 PM 724 Views

you're counting on the DO of being absent minded? Japhy - 17/04/2010 10:59:41 PM 685 Views

The Foresaken had their permission revoked, but the DO can enact consequences on them... FanEditor10 - 29/04/2010 04:35:27 AM 824 Views

I think using the TP against the DO is wishful thinking. redhand - 31/10/2009 04:33:33 PM 798 Views

Generally agree. Joel - 06/11/2009 09:07:57 AM 838 Views

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<quote id="44192">
<quote id="41008">OK - a bit of a mixed bag here, but first post here since wotmania so forgive me. ;)

So we now know that Rand has access to the True Power - what do you think is the significance of it?  I'm thinking something along the lines of:

1. True Power could be used to replace Saidin as the power that "touched the dark one" when sealing him back up. </quote>
That's what I think, too. It's the only way to avoid re-tainting the Source. Rands question to LTT about whether the Taint was caused by the absence of women misses the point. If the women had been involved it simply would've tainted both halves of the One Power.
<quote id="41008">2. True Power could be used to kill the Dark One altogether as Rand seems to be considering more in this book. </quote>
I tend to agree here as well, even though I don't think the DO can be killed and existence preserved. It looks like in Jordans world the Creator needs the DO in much the way saidin needs saidar. After I read that section, however, I found myself thinking that if the One Power is that of the Creator and the True Power is that of the DO, and if the two are coeval, then the total strength of the Creator is just equal to that of the DO--but they're combined strength is twice as great. Using both in concert might be able to destroy him--if Rand can find a way to channel the True Power and the One Power at the same time.

I doubt that's how things will go though. My suspicion is Jordan's just setting up for lots of nastiness now that Rand is evidently linked to the DO himself via the TP. I can't help wondering what will result from that if he forms a circle with other channelers. What's odd, and says something about how closely Ishy and Rand are linked, is that you can't channel the TP without the DOs permission, and he definitely never gave that to Rand.
<quote id="41008">3. It's just there to show how close Rand was getting to the Dark One himself. i.e. more like Moridin every day.</quote>
No, here I disagree. I don't think they're all that close at all, Rand's just linked to Ishy now, and the two of them are becoming very close in many ways. Given that, no surprise Rand's developing an affinity for the DO in some ways, too, but the real link is with Ishy.
<quote id="41008">Also - during Rand's epiphany when he's questioning why he's fighting, he comes onto the subject of love, and how he's doing this all again to have a second chance. He mentions that "she might have been reborn". which i took to mean Ilyena. What do you think the significance of this is? Could it go back to the old theory that Ilyena was reborn into three bodies (i.e. Avi, Elayne and Min?). Or just musing on Rand's part? </quote>
Maybe, but I doubt it. That basically means souls can be split and recombined into other souls, and that doesn't track for me. Doesn't square with most views of transmigration, and blows the concept of "The Dragon Reborn" into tiny shards. No, if anything I'd say Elayne is Ilyena Sunhair Reborn. However, the fact LTT has never shown any recognition of that makes it dubious.
<quote id="41008">and now that the Choedan Kal is gone, the importance of the chapter where Min and Caddy are talking about the Callandor are more clear. But Rand's clearly going to need that kind of power in the battle with the dark one - why destroy the Choedan Kal? Was it just Rand's way to showing that he shouldn't have that kind of power so readily available? Or do you think there was some other significance? </quote>
No, I think that's exactly what it is. In any but a fictional setting it would be monumentally stupid, but since Jordan's writing the plot Rand didn't just kiss off any hope of victory.
</quote>

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