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Re: It has, yes, but that doesn't make it realistic. fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 06/11/2009 05:57:12 AM

The Sitters and Ajah heads for the most part are not presented as fools, no, but still you get people like Falene (iirc? the head of the White) taking advice from Egwene, long before the Seanchan strike. And most glaringly, the way Egwene barges in on the Black Ajah Hunters and somehow manages to gain the upper hand.

Ferane wasn't asking for advice, she was testing Egwene, as Egwene herself pointed out. Their only difference was on whether Rand had to be controlled.
As for the Blacks, the only reason Egwene gained control is that she made them uncomfortable, which she was able to do because she figured out they had illegally used a fourth oath compulsion on Meidani. That may well rank as a stilling offense, and if she had blabbed, their BA hunting days would have been over.
Even after that, Saerin never shows any undue respect till Egwene straight out asks her if she wanted to be in charge. Saerin says she does not, so she ends up supporting Egwene.

Acknowledging that she has sense and isn't a fool is still a very far cry from accepting her as a leader. Or should be, anyhow.

But we see worse in other fantasies. Danaerys in aSoIaF turns from timid teen to commanding queen in a matter of days, and no one objects.
Egwene, however, was always driven, and has been shown to be a perfectionist since she was nine years old. She's had months of intensive training from a bunch of very intelligent and forceful women (Moiraine, the Wise Ones, Siuan, etc.), and has always been shown as a sponge for knowledge, and a person who adapted to new environments very well.
It isn't like there is no basis for Egwene's competence.

The debate of Elaida, along with the Black Ajah Hunters meeting, are the two most problematic scenes, I think. In Elaida's case, the stupidity or even temporary insanity that allows Egwene to make a big impression and become a martyr, and then the way Seaine and the others allow her to barge in on them and discuss what to do as if she were a full sister. Both are way too blatant and easy, and obviously aimed at making Egwene acceptable as Amyrlin so that the plot can move on, at the cost of credibility. I suppose RJ could've done it more subtly, and one might point out that if RJ/Sanderson had taken the time to do it more subtly and more believably, we would've been looking at several slow-moving books more before Egwene finally got where she needed to be, but all the same, it weakens the book (or at least Egwene's scenes) for me.

But Elaida's declining sanity was always being built up, and the foolishness of some of her actions like kidnapping Rand or demoting Aes Sedai are not things that were newly discovered now! People on this board have been finding the same flaws with them for years! Egwene merely pointed the illogic of Elaida's actions. She called her out on the whole fourth oath thing, and even that was not without precedent. Elaida was dreaming of it in book 7, I think!
As for the BA hunters, I explained why Egwene was able to take control. Nothing surprising. She was subtly blackmailing them, just like Nynaeve blackmailed Siuan when she found out she and Leanne were not enemies. Doesn't make them idiots.
Incidentally, while we're on the topic: Rand may feel that his ta'veren-ness deserted him when negotiating with Tuon, and rightly so, but if you consider that Egwene got her final and decisive push for Amyrlin from the Seanchan attack, you could argue the Light benefited from the failure of those negotiations.

Not necessarily. Tuon had planned the attack before she talked to Rand, and had always seen it as a bargaining chip. Sure, a truce may have prevented that, but Egwene did not need the Seanchan attack to become Amyrlin.
All she had to do was approach Saerin with Verin's book, promise swift retribution against the Blacks, and she'd have had four powerful Sitters in the Hall loyal to her. Suana and Ferane were also favorable to her, and they being Ajah Heads, could have brought in more.
Elaida had already lost face, and Egwene would have played the removal of Silviana to turn the Red against Elaida, while making them see her as a better candidate.
It would have taken a little longer, but the Seanchan attack wasn't necessary.

Certainly, but as far as I'm aware, that and the subsequent imprisonment were all on Elaida's orders, who we know is not Black.

And we also know she is incapable of being manipulated by them? Egwene says somewhere that Elaida had begun to rely on Katerine increasingly after Tarna left, a clear sign as any that the BA was pulling Elaida's strings.
[quote]One might expect a little more intelligence and smarter moves from the Black Ajah than from Elaida. They could've killed or abducted her, thus not only removing the annoyance inside the Tower but also further diminishing the chances of the two factions reuniting. With the numbers the Black Ajah now turns out to have, you'd think they could've done more than just follow Elaida's orders.[/quote]
But killing or abducting her had grave risks. She was constantly watched, for one, and her death would cause immense turmoil within the Tower itself. Elaida would not be accused of it, and thinking sisters who investigated might have found out more than the Blacks wanted.
Instead, they got Katerine close to Elaida, and as MoN, Katerine was to have control of Egwene after she was released. Do you doubt they wouldn't have tried to reverse her actions once Katerine had taken care of her? (Of course, they need to be forgiven for not knowing that Katerine would likely be less effective than Silviana).

Except that it's not very credible that said leadership *would* be required. And her "sense" may be impressive for an Accepted, but again, enormous step from there to letting her lead you.

Why was no leadership required. Please explain how, with all the divisions and infighting in the Tower, anyone like Seaine or Saerin could have provided leadership.

Oh, a whole month?

A month where a lot happened, shaking the Aes Sedai's belief in their infallibility.
With the way the Power-based hierarchy among Aes Sedai is described, you'd almost start to doubt whether even a low-ranking sister like, say, Daigian could manage to get all those Sitters listening to her after just a month, no matter how sensible or brave she was. And Egwene isn't a sister.

But she is an enormously strong woman (in the One Power). That does count for quite a lot, you know. Her strength and skill had even Elaida respect ehr enough that she did not want to kill her. And silly though it is, OP strength does play a subtle but ever present role in the way AS look at you.

There was division and strife between the Ajahs, yes, but then that meant that sisters mostly stuck together in their own Ajah quarters, which means they couldn't have been all that divided.

But they still haven't faced large scale battles against channelers in forever. And they were sleeping. And did not know what the Seanchan could do, did not know about the collaring, etc.
Egwene rallied the novices to her and worked with circles; how come the various Ajahs seem to have done nothing of the kind?

Who says they didn't? But it is uncertain how many of each Ajah were present, since all but the Red's were split. Worse, the Yellows and Browns had their quarters split between their old locations and the Novices quarters and the basement kitchens! Add to that the fact that many rooms are likely to be empty, it is very possible that the AS were not concentrated enough to orm large circles. They thus got taken down in small groups. Hardly an impossibility.
Egwene had the advantage that a lot of novices were clustered together around her.

An immensely convenient continuity error.

Not as convenient as the Choedan Kal's Access Key shrinking from a three foot long statue to a something Rand could carry in his pockets! I don't see too many people complaining, though.
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It has, yes, but that doesn't make it realistic. - 01/11/2009 11:16:19 AM 910 Views
Re: It has, yes, but that doesn't make it realistic. - 05/11/2009 02:01:28 AM 624 Views
Re: It has, yes, but that doesn't make it realistic. - 05/11/2009 02:09:26 PM 651 Views
I agree with most of your post but I have a nitpick - 06/11/2009 02:08:31 AM 524 Views
Re: It has, yes, but that doesn't make it realistic. - 06/11/2009 05:57:12 AM 689 Views

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