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Hmm, I have some problems with this Sidious Send a noteboard - 06/11/2009 04:23:23 AM

1) There are wards that detect male channelers
2) There are wards that signal the channeler who set them up an alert if someone enters or passes a certain point
3) There are wards and weaves that enable female channelers detect male channelers
4) Graendal's palace may have are defenses she never listed, but we do know that it is surrounded with various weaves that provide for her comfort, such as the temperature augmenting weave - we even see her use a variant earlier in the book
Thus, I actually think you need to suspect rationality in order to believe that she doesn't have defenses around herself besides creature comforts.


Well we have evidence that these wards probably do not exist. Firstly, Sammael pops up once in a while and nothing happens to him and she doesn't detect him. Secondly, and most importantly, when Cyndane and Moghedien arrive she asks them to leave because there are many webs all about to snare intruders, which she admits is a lie. Therefore she doesn't really have any base defenses that we know of, and she even contradicts it herself. Lastly, she's probably not strong enough to weave a warding that would detect Rand at such a distance - he was very far from the fortress. Rand himself needed an angreal to encircle his Aiel camp with a ward, what chance does she have?

Here is my problem with your reasoning:
1) Graendal was at the Cleansing, and saw the vast amounts of the Power being generated and felt the amounts of saidar - she had no reason to doubt that the male Access Key was destroyed; given what she witnessed, it would be uncharacteristic for her not to assume he had it on him. Especially since Rand took to wearing it on his belt, riding saddle and even had his clothing revised to keep it on him


I don't doubt that she thinks he possesses it, but I doubt she knew he had it on him.

2) The last time Rand dropped in to a Forsaken's palace (Rahvin's) it didn't turn out too well. I think it is flawed reasoning to assume she would hold her ground when she had other headquarters set up for just such an occurrence


Graendal doesn't keep her ground - she flees. Rand even said she would have a dozen other places to flee to if he arrived. The point I'm making is that she surely didn't know he'd arrived to kill her. Actually, it's my only point - that she was incredibly surprised up to the moment she died.

3) She said she had two overall tactics in regards to Rand - throw herself at his mercy or run away. I think it is flawed reasoning to discount this statement and think that she would now violate direct orders to meet with him when she is very close to her goal


I agree that she'd do that, but she didn't know he was on a cliffside facing her palace. She thought he was back at his palace in Ebou Dar sending her messengers to see what would come of it, so that he could formulate a tactic. She no doubt thought she was extremely clever in her subtle Compulsion of the messenger.

4) Her M.O. (once again) - she doesn't like it when she has to meet on other people's territory but she especially doesn't like it when they come unannounced to hers. The entire section is rather vapid - Rand sends a nobleman running through the forest to her palace and then the same nobleman heads back, where he is taken by Aiel and lead back to Rand. There is a lot of potential for her to simply escape and leave a dupe at the palace for Rand to meet. It is a little ridiculous to assume that since she knows Rand can channel, she wouldn't find it alarming to have a messenger arrive suddenly and totally discount the idea that Rand was trying to keep her there to trap her.


That would be idiotic of Rand - why would he send a messenger heralding his imminent attack? If he wanted to go for her, he would jump on her with a surprise attack, but then, he knew she'd merely flee. Graendal was there and compelled the messenger. It's instant unravelling can only be through balefire. There is no evidence that she can hold a weave at such a distance, especially multiple weaves at such a great distance, and most especially because she thought the man was walking back to Ebou Dar to deliver his report to Rand. She probably thought she had days before Rand came for her.

5) Your reasoning is flawed in terms of the messengers: Graendal has Arad Doman well in hand, and is very well-informed of gossip and rumour. Her palance, also, is in a forgotten and out of the way place. It is very hard to play the "he sent messengers to every noble house" card when A) he did no such thing, b/c she would have heard of it and B) she chose a base that most people had forgotten about completely - part of the reasons she chose it was to have a place where she could control and monitor who she let in on her whereabouts


If she was scared of Rand she would have compelled the messenger and Travelled immediately. But then, the Compulsion would have remained.

6) Finally, you discount that the exact same thing happened in Winter's Heart. Rand and Nynaeve suddenly Travelled near Shadar Logoth, channeled massive amounts of Power and Cleansed saidin. The whole point of this section of the book was to show how alien Rand was becoming to Min, Nynaeve and his friends - at this point, I doubt it even occurred to him that she didn't need to know what he planned to decide that it was time to run


And the Forsaken didn't know about the Cleansing until that very moment, at which point they went there. Graendal's plan wasn't very elaborate there either - she went there to fight.


I'm sorry, but maybe I'm too used to this series, but almost nothing happens in a straightforward way. In fact, I'm more convinced she is alive because it is so basic and elemental that there are a lot of "human" holes in the plan. Considering how good she is at self-preservation and her personality, I almost thing it strains belief to think she'd allow someone to come onto her doorstep uninvited when she is not the one sending the invitation. Personality is very important here - I simply don't think she is the type of villain to stay in her palace under these circumstances.

I could be wrong, but there are quite a few theories that seemed so basic as to be unassailable in their logic, only to have them turned on their head when a perfectly valid plot point based on personality and placement in the story is introduced. We'll see!


I understand your take on the scene, and it's always difficult when there's no body. I once thought that Sammael wasn't dead because there was no body, but we know he's toast - and Osan'gar is probably dead too. Graendal is probably dead IMO, despite being so clever, she can be outsmarted by radical behaviour.
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Here's the deal, though. Semirhage actions actually followed part of the theory to a tee. - 05/11/2009 07:21:21 PM 538 Views
Ah, anyway... - 05/11/2009 07:58:05 PM 492 Views
I agree with you - 05/11/2009 07:32:39 PM 576 Views
Exactly. - 05/11/2009 07:56:00 PM 713 Views
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It's quite simple logic. - 05/11/2009 08:05:15 PM 603 Views
Then how did she do it? - 05/11/2009 09:41:53 PM 517 Views
Re: Then how did she do it? - 05/11/2009 10:58:01 PM 481 Views
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It is a possibility. - 06/11/2009 03:43:22 AM 515 Views
Hmm, I have some problems with this - 06/11/2009 04:23:23 AM 607 Views
Some points no one addressed, a.k.a. Graendal lured Rand in... - 06/11/2009 05:16:12 AM 573 Views
Still no answers. I think I'm correct in feeling she is alive. *NM* - 06/11/2009 09:25:47 PM 214 Views
Re: Hmm, I have some problems with this - 06/11/2009 02:34:54 PM 581 Views
But... - 06/11/2009 02:56:32 PM 512 Views
Re: But... - 06/11/2009 03:07:02 PM 535 Views
Re: But... - 06/11/2009 03:53:41 PM 682 Views
Re: But... - 06/11/2009 07:35:12 PM 500 Views
She's definitely the deadiest - 05/11/2009 02:05:23 PM 612 Views
I think she escaped, but it says something that he had to become worse than a Forsaken to do it - 05/11/2009 06:10:08 PM 517 Views
Eventually they will be reborn... - 05/11/2009 06:30:45 PM 464 Views
Thanks for reminding me. Oh well, then I'm stuck with the whole tearing apart the Pattern thing - 05/11/2009 06:44:35 PM 477 Views
Moiraine says. - 05/11/2009 07:02:10 PM 495 Views
In this case, Moiraine's comment doesn't really matter. - 05/11/2009 07:14:44 PM 522 Views
Re: In this case, Moiraine's comment doesn't really matter. - 05/11/2009 07:35:18 PM 591 Views
From what I keep hearing - 05/11/2009 08:58:57 PM 547 Views
I could well believe it - 05/11/2009 11:03:40 PM 439 Views
Re: In this case, Moiraine's comment doesn't really matter. - 06/11/2009 09:00:01 PM 425 Views
I conceed to Rand's point - 05/11/2009 06:31:38 PM 602 Views
I don't think it's acceptable to tear apart the Pattern to save it. - 05/11/2009 06:40:22 PM 448 Views
True... - 05/11/2009 06:57:24 PM 488 Views
Re: True... - 05/11/2009 07:07:07 PM 467 Views
Re: True... - 05/11/2009 07:35:06 PM 528 Views
Re: True... - 05/11/2009 08:07:42 PM 483 Views
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Difference between being dangerous and hard to kill--but, she is dangerous - 08/11/2009 02:19:34 AM 543 Views
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meh - 19/12/2009 11:56:12 PM 426 Views

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