Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: Using the word "Hogwash" is inviting flames, but I will be nice about it by fionwe1987

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Re: Using the word "Hogwash" is inviting flames, but I will be nice about it fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 05/11/2009 02:54:52 AM

In tEOW, Rand and the TR folks recall the storys and the saying, "AS help always comes with a hook". When Min goes to the Tower, and see other folks seeing audience with the WT, which one comes with respect instead of fear?

Many come out of respect. And the same TR folk who were worried about Moiraine end up missing her greatly in tGS!

Just look at the ranking system of AS. They think about the strength, and power differential every single day. Everything is reduced to a power struggle in the end. Whoever has more power has more say. The ones are not shown bullying because there is a bigger bully present.

What is the relevance of this? The Seanchan too gain power by having more and stronger damane. What is the point of this comparison?
And neither Moiriane nor Cadsuane use their strength in the Power to do what needs to be done. Cadsuane gives equal respect to even the weakest of Aes Sedai, and commands them due to the genuine respect they have for her.

Yes, the Tower has flaws. I don't see how that makes it worse than an empire that enslaves every woman who can channel.

1. No tyrants ruling by fear last long. The Seanchan is ruled by merits much more so than other kingdoms. Any one successful enough are adapted into the Imperial Family, and that is much more direct than the Randland approach of successful folks marrying into the ruling family/House. In Seanchan where there is the Hand, the Shadow, the Voice, the leader actually listens to advices. Go check the military chapters, how often the High Lords and High Ladys sought advices. Seeking advice, people exchanging information, people actually talking to each other, these themes that are central to these books occur naturally in the Seanchan examples. That is institutational in Seanchan culture.

But what about the slaves? People are born slaves because of crimes committed by their forebears ages ago! And these property can become more important property, but are granted freedom only rarely. Else, they are to be used as nude playthings and fanatical soldiers.

Clearly, you see Tyrants where there is none. What kind of tyrant is Tuon? Which tyrants will disagree clamly with a mere inn keeper like Setalle?

The kind of tyrant who is someone else's prisoner and has no access to her power?
In tGS, Toun is surprised Tylee dares to make a statement that contradicts hers, clearly showing that no one can speak against the Empress except one woman whom she chooses to be honest with her. What is that if not tyranny?

2. AS do not stop all wars. They select which wars they allow, and which they stop. Suian allowed that Murandy lord to start a war to unite his country, and stop Andor to wage war against that guy. They DO use their vast power to enforce their will on the populance. They just don't use their own soldiers to so do. And where are they during the White Cloak Wars?

Of course they don't stop all wars. They only stop as many as they can.
As for letting those raids go on, did you read why they did that? The point was to bring stability to a nation, prevent more internecine conflicts in Murandy, not bring down Andor!
As for the Whitecloak wars... how they hell are they supposed to negotiate with idiots who will shoot them on site?

They could not. If they actually could, the WT would not needed Artur Hawkwing's army to help defeat the army of the Second Dragon. With their angreal, they can prevent Hawkwing from taking the city, but not to break the seige.

They needed Hawking's help because they never set themselves up as a military superpower. I'm discussing a hypothetical situation where they do do that. What then?

Hmmm, like brainwashing all Randland channelers to become WT's slave, and claim to like it?

Please show me some proof of this. The vast majority of the channelres in Randland have no affiliation with the Tower at all!

The damane channels to serve the Empire, and love it. The AS channelers to serve the WT, and love it.

the first are tortured with the a'dam till they obey. the second are protected from any kind of torture whatsoever! Elaida, the Amyrlin Seat, is given penance for beating Egwene, a mere novice.

The Aes Sedai love Tar Valon because it is their city, the source of their power and influence. Not because they are forced to. An AS who wishes to stay away from the WT and its politics may do so, as Cadsuane amply proves.

Any channelers that do not love the Tower as such are "exiled" into the other worlds during the Accepted Test. And why is the love of the WT the most important thing in the world, more than the love of anuthing else? Clearly not morality, or no BA can ever pass the Accepted Test.

That is another flaw of the WT, but why exactly is this comparable to the Seanchan?

I do give you that the WT takes much longer, like years, to slowly break the more capable channelers. The saying goes, "You are not done with the White Tower, until the White Tower is done with you." The way they kill off dissidents leaves no blood directly on their hands. That is being clever.

Bull shit. The WT never broke hosts of women (and never tried, any way). You can leave the Tower any time you want.

By the way, do you notice that I'm dealing with facts about the Seanchan Empire and you're dealing with selective beliefs about the Tower?

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Is anyone angered by the Seanchan and a'dam? TheCrownless - 30/10/2009 11:14:00 PM 1435 Views

Yes, but not me Deadsy - 30/10/2009 11:32:45 PM 702 Views

Re: Yes, but not me Saruto - 31/10/2009 12:49:42 AM 647 Views

I hated him Deadsy - 31/10/2009 12:57:52 AM 634 Views

Re: Is anyone angry by the Seanchan and A'dam itsjustme - 30/10/2009 11:39:45 PM 802 Views

Re: Is anyone angry by the Seanchan and A'dam itsjustme - 30/10/2009 11:45:29 PM 654 Views

Except the Seanchan are not spoiled chidlren who mistake "wishful thinking" for a plan Cannoli - 31/10/2009 04:48:45 AM 688 Views

Or he could have used the Choedan Kal TheCrownless - 31/10/2009 12:21:42 PM 646 Views

What Choedan Kal? *NM* Cannoli - 31/10/2009 10:15:24 PM 249 Views

The big shiney ball thing he destroyed at the end of the book TheCrownless - 01/11/2009 07:50:15 PM 591 Views

Destroyed. My point exactly. *NM* Cannoli - 06/11/2009 04:40:16 AM 234 Views

For what? Great Lord of Chaos - 31/10/2009 12:03:57 AM 642 Views

if he was it wasn't on purpose. I think he was just actively trying to use his ta'verenness *NM* Deadsy - 31/10/2009 12:15:32 AM 257 Views

I dont think it's compulsion. TheCrownless - 31/10/2009 12:16:00 AM 581 Views

Actually, I think it's the other way around.

Great Lord of Chaos - 31/10/2009 12:21:49 AM 556 Views

He did the same thing with Cady TheCrownless - 31/10/2009 12:25:51 AM 567 Views

Personally, I thought he was using the TP to do those things. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/11/2009 07:37:31 PM 524 Views

It wasn't Compulsion...Sanderson just sort of messed up IMO Marshall - 04/11/2009 11:38:38 PM 469 Views

No Simon - 31/10/2009 12:06:13 AM 595 Views

I don't care for Tuon at all. I'd be okay if her and the Seanchan were obliterated. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 31/10/2009 12:44:22 AM 254 Views

And how is that any different from me with Egwene (except she & I are the same race)? *NM* Cannoli - 31/10/2009 04:51:17 AM 260 Views

Have I ever criticized you for disliking Egwene? TaskmasterJack - 31/10/2009 01:06:39 PM 552 Views

Why not Highlords in Tear? redhand - 31/10/2009 02:10:07 AM 678 Views

You dont really get it. TheCrownless - 31/10/2009 12:23:35 PM 528 Views

That is just POV trap redhand - 31/10/2009 04:20:07 PM 520 Views

Flawed Argument Bookwyrm - 31/10/2009 08:54:05 PM 513 Views

Not at all. Their position is perfectly justified by their experiences. Cannoli - 31/10/2009 04:29:25 AM 620 Views

The a'dam and leashing of channelers does not change the fact that the OP can be misued... fionwe1987 - 31/10/2009 09:17:20 AM 616 Views

Which is why people should NOT be MORE angered toward Seanchan than toward WT. redhand - 31/10/2009 06:22:13 PM 509 Views

That's complete hogwash. fionwe1987 - 31/10/2009 10:23:50 PM 557 Views

Using the word "Hogwash" is inviting flames, but I will be nice about it redhand - 01/11/2009 05:44:16 AM 580 Views

Re: Using the word "Hogwash" is inviting flames, but I will be nice about it fionwe1987 - 05/11/2009 02:54:52 AM 876 Views

Think it through Cannoli - 31/10/2009 10:25:08 PM 642 Views

I have... fionwe1987 - 31/10/2009 11:05:20 PM 611 Views

Re: I have... Cannoli - 01/11/2009 02:27:20 AM 774 Views

Well that was rather silly. TheCrownless - 31/10/2009 12:27:03 PM 485 Views

And a generation later, the same old problem arises. New channelers, with no one to stop them. Cannoli - 31/10/2009 10:28:35 PM 513 Views

Several valid points... Legolas - 31/10/2009 05:17:09 PM 564 Views

I wonder what if Egwene happen to be a child kidnapped at Flame and sent to WT redhand - 31/10/2009 06:30:34 PM 569 Views

Your point has some validity for the actual Seanchan damane. Legolas - 31/10/2009 06:43:40 PM 593 Views

The sul'dam should be destroyed Sidious - 31/10/2009 05:14:06 AM 528 Views

The people themselves shouldn't be. Great Lord of Chaos - 31/10/2009 05:26:08 AM 511 Views

^ *NM* Deadsy - 31/10/2009 05:33:04 AM 227 Views

Only the Empress can remove the custom Sidious - 31/10/2009 05:48:09 AM 531 Views

Due to their conditioning. Great Lord of Chaos - 31/10/2009 06:03:32 AM 544 Views

She will

(and ya, sul'dam become sul'dam from age 13-18 usually) *NM* Deadsy - 31/10/2009 06:12:48 AM 250 Views

Random Saragorn - 31/10/2009 10:26:34 AM 524 Views

Agreed Simon - 31/10/2009 02:52:33 PM 513 Views

I think the a'dam is the perfect solution for Blacks and the Shaido 'Wise Ones'. Gher - 01/11/2009 02:51:27 AM 587 Views

Yes. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/11/2009 06:15:08 PM 463 Views

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<quote id="43529">
<quote id="41694">
In tEOW, Rand and the TR folks recall the storys and the saying, "AS help always comes with a hook". When Min goes to the Tower, and see other folks seeing audience with the WT, which one comes with respect instead of fear?</quote>  
Many come out of respect. And the same TR folk who were worried about Moiraine end up missing her greatly in tGS!
<quote>Just look at the ranking system of AS. They think about the strength, and power differential every single day. Everything is reduced to a power struggle in the end. Whoever has more power has more say. The ones are not shown bullying because there is a bigger bully present.</quote>
What is the relevance of this? The Seanchan too gain power by having more and stronger damane. What is the point of this comparison?
And neither Moiriane nor Cadsuane use their strength in the Power to do what needs to be done. Cadsuane gives equal respect to even the weakest of Aes Sedai, and commands them due to the genuine respect they have for her.

Yes, the Tower has flaws. I don't see how that makes it worse than an empire that enslaves every woman who can channel.

<quote>
1. No tyrants ruling by fear last long. The Seanchan is ruled by merits much more so than other kingdoms. Any one successful enough are adapted into the Imperial Family, and that is much more direct than the Randland approach of successful folks marrying into the ruling family/House. In Seanchan where there is the Hand, the Shadow, the Voice, the leader actually listens to advices. Go check the military chapters, how often the High Lords and High Ladys sought advices. Seeking advice, people exchanging information, people actually talking to each other, these themes that are central to these books occur naturally in the Seanchan examples. That is institutational in Seanchan culture.</quote>
But what about the slaves? People are born slaves because of crimes committed by their forebears ages ago! And these property can become more important property, but are granted freedom only rarely. Else, they are to be used as nude playthings and fanatical soldiers.

<quote>Clearly, you see Tyrants where there is none. What kind of tyrant is Tuon? Which tyrants will disagree clamly with a mere inn keeper like Setalle? </quote>
The kind of tyrant who is someone else's prisoner and has no access to her power?
In tGS, Toun is surprised Tylee dares to make a statement that contradicts hers, clearly showing that no one can speak against the Empress except one woman whom she chooses to be honest with her. What is that if not tyranny?
<quote>2. AS do not stop all wars. They select which wars they allow, and which they stop. Suian allowed that Murandy lord to start a war to unite his country, and stop Andor to wage war against that guy. They DO use their vast power to enforce their will on the populance. They just don't use their own soldiers to so do. And where are they during the White Cloak Wars?</quote>
Of course they don't stop all wars. They only stop as many as they can.
As for letting those raids go on, did you read why they did that? The point was to bring stability to a nation, prevent more internecine conflicts in Murandy, not bring down Andor!
As for the Whitecloak wars... how they hell are they supposed to negotiate with idiots who will shoot them on site?

<quote>
They could not. If they actually could, the WT would not needed Artur Hawkwing's army to help defeat the army of the Second Dragon. With their angreal, they can prevent Hawkwing from taking the city, but not to break the seige.</quote>
They needed Hawking's help because they never set themselves up as a military superpower. I'm discussing a hypothetical situation where they do do that. What then?

<quote>
Hmmm, like brainwashing all Randland channelers to become WT's slave, and claim to like it?</quote>
Please show me some proof of this. The vast majority of the channelres in Randland have no affiliation with the Tower at all!

<quote>The damane channels to serve the Empire, and love it. The AS channelers to serve the WT, and love it.</quote>
the first are tortured with the a'dam till they obey. the second are protected from any kind of torture whatsoever! Elaida, the Amyrlin Seat, is given penance for beating Egwene, a mere novice.

The Aes Sedai love Tar Valon because it is their city, the source of their power and influence. Not because they are forced to. An AS who wishes to stay away from the WT and its politics may do so, as Cadsuane amply proves.

<quote>Any channelers that do not love the Tower as such are "exiled" into the other worlds during the Accepted Test. And why is the love of the WT the most important thing in the world, more than the love of anuthing else? Clearly not morality, or no BA can ever pass the Accepted Test.</quote>
That is another flaw of the WT, but why exactly is this comparable to the Seanchan?
<quote>I do give you that the WT takes much longer, like years, to slowly break the more capable channelers. The saying goes, "You are not done with the White Tower, until the White Tower is done with you." The way they kill off dissidents leaves no blood directly on their hands. That is being clever.</quote>
Bull shit. The WT never broke hosts of women (and never tried, any way). You can leave the Tower any time you want.

By the way, do you notice that I'm dealing with facts about the Seanchan Empire and you're dealing with selective beliefs about the Tower?
</quote>

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