Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: It has, yes, but that doesn't make it realistic. by fionwe1987

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Re: It has, yes, but that doesn't make it realistic. fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 05/11/2009 02:01:28 AM

Firstly, the amount of women who are depicted as having half a brain is very, very small indeed. What about all the rest? And secondly, let's not forget that Egwene *is* just an Accepted in Tar Valon's eyes, and a rebel to boot. In a less hierarchic society, that might not have been so much of a problem, but considering the way novices and Accepted are treated in earlier books, it makes the ease with which Egwene gets Aes Sedai and even Sitters to consider her an equal or even superior fairly exaggerated. And Tar Valon, unlike Salidar, has not had time to get used to an Amyrlin raised from Accepted, or to semi-full sisters like Theodrin, or to uber-strong and mature novices like Sharina.

The number of woman depicted as having brains who are also in power is not all that small. And that is the subset that we saw.
As for Egwene gaining respect... yes no one would take advise from a normal Accepted. Because a normal Accepted would be too scared to give advise. Egwene might have had the title of Novice, but she never behaved like one. For over a month, the AS tried to drub her down, make her behave like a Novice. But she simply refused, and when they tested to see if this upstart was merely being stubborn or actually had any sense, she showed that she was no baby.
Add to this her debate with Elaida, Silviana standing up for her, and the Seanchan attack and how she predicted and handled it, it isn't so surprising that these women started respecting her.

Making it all the more interesting that we hear or see *nothing* of Mesaana or any Black sisters during Egwene's one-woman-war, wouldn't you say? They've managed to exacerbate tensions between the Ajahs for months or even a year (I'm a bit fuzzy on the timeline), sowing chaos and division, and then when Egwene starts trying to bridge those gaps and is exceptionally - imho unreasonably, in your opinion evidently not - successful, they do precisely nothing about it.

Huh? Do you remember a certain Black called Katerine amusingly announcing to Egwene that her freedom was ended and that she had to serve in the kitchen from now on?

That they were blindsided by Egwene's move against them based on Verin's information, I'll buy, as they had no way of seeing it coming, but one really has to wonder why they did nothing to undermine Egwene's attempts to undo their work.

They did, so I'm at a complete loss as to why you think to the contrary.

The fact that you state that pretty much underlines my point. You put Egwene in the same category as Cadsuane, which for a *reader* is a fair thing to do, as we've seen Egwene and know what she's capable of, and because in fantasy young people take up positions usually reserved for much more experienced people all the time. The Salidar Aes Sedai have had some time to get used to her being Amyrlin, as well. The Tar Valon ones have not, and the idea of an Accepted being in the same category as Cadsuane is completely laughable for them. Or should have been, anyway.

Well they never equated her to Cadsuane. More importantly, they did laugh her off. However, she did not let that deter her at all, and just continued doing her thing, providing sense and leadership when required.
In the final discussion between the Ajah Heads, it is not just her actions, but that fact that she did them even though Elaida restricted her so much, even when she was locked in a box and beaten regularly, that cinches the argument in her favor.

I mean, it's kind of like some 25-year old bloke walking into the US Senate and telling them everything they're doing wrong - and the Senate listening to him.

They did not listen to her from the first day. It took them more than a month to see her worth.

Certainly, that's what the book says happened. Whether one finds that credible or realistic is something else. I don't think it's unrealistic that Egwene rallied the novices and went to fight, and as someone has said somewhere, it was important for her to exorcise her demons. I do think it's unrealistic that most other Aes Sedai, including Adelorna at that, are so useless, and of course one has to wonder how she can get her hands on that sa'angreal so easily.

Why were women like Adelorna useless? Because the Tower has not had to engage multiple channelers in combat since the Trolloc Wars two thousand years ago. And they were divided, providing small pockets of resistance that the Seanchan were easily able to overcome. In places though, women like Saerin and Seaine gathered pockets of resistance that countered the Seanchan well enough.

As for the wards in the store-rooms mysteriously disappearing, it was a continuity error, I think.

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Egwene... one of the best characters in the series Sidious - 30/10/2009 07:45:11 AM 1399 Views

I so agree with you!! aragornital - 30/10/2009 08:24:53 AM 674 Views

Re: I so agree with you!! Sidious - 31/10/2009 05:28:38 AM 598 Views

I hope I am wrong but Lord o' Salv - 30/10/2009 08:52:37 AM 817 Views

Re: I hope I am wrong but urizen - 30/10/2009 09:05:29 AM 687 Views

Re: I hope I am wrong but Code_Man65 - 30/10/2009 11:38:54 AM 642 Views

Re: Egwene... one of the best characters in the series - AMEN!!!!!!! *NM* Evil_Monkey - 30/10/2009 01:34:55 PM 325 Views

Agreed

*NM* Sidious - 31/10/2009 05:29:09 AM 285 Views

I lurves her. She am pretty, smart, courageous, independent, the whole package.

Bookwyrm - 30/10/2009 03:28:07 PM 602 Views

Pretty! An absolute MUST for a good character in a pictureless book series! Cannoli - 31/10/2009 05:09:13 AM 650 Views

It's obvious you're petty and shallow. Who said anything about PHYSICAL beauty? Bookwyrm - 31/10/2009 09:09:52 PM 621 Views

That *is* the most obvious interpretation of the word "pretty"... Legolas - 31/10/2009 09:44:38 PM 676 Views

As expected, Cannoli is nothing but obvious. He has no depth, just cheese. XD *NM* Bookwyrm - 31/10/2009 09:54:11 PM 300 Views

She is the whole package Sidious - 31/10/2009 05:29:57 AM 602 Views

Agreed! Screw you Conalli... whatever your name is

*NM* Nargs - 30/10/2009 04:05:39 PM 345 Views

She's coming off a bit Mary Sue-like, IMO beetnemesis - 30/10/2009 06:48:59 PM 858 Views

Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 31/10/2009 06:01:32 PM 295 Views

Sidious: proving as Jason did, that running a WoT site makes you crap as a reader Cannoli - 30/10/2009 07:09:46 PM 739 Views

Re: Sidious: proving as Jason did, that running a WoT site makes you crap as a reader Sidious - 31/10/2009 05:33:19 AM 661 Views

Good job, yes. Worthy goal - not really. Still an arrogant Tower-loving carppy friend, absolutely Cannoli - 31/10/2009 10:33:28 PM 748 Views

pompous fybonacci - 31/10/2009 05:48:13 AM 591 Views

It sorta reminded me.. Great Lord of Chaos - 31/10/2009 06:02:22 AM 642 Views

Only two words - Mother Goddess ! Elvira_Sedai - 31/10/2009 09:18:18 AM 594 Views

Well, only recently... Saragorn - 31/10/2009 11:19:15 AM 699 Views

It was all very impressive, yes. Unfortunately, it was *too* impressive and that makes it hollow. Legolas - 31/10/2009 06:16:03 PM 626 Views

Re: It was all very impressive, yes. Unfortunately, it was *too* impressive and that makes it hollow Cannoli - 31/10/2009 10:34:54 PM 651 Views

Eh, that's not really that damning imho. Legolas - 31/10/2009 10:42:42 PM 667 Views

Its been heading there, no? fionwe1987 - 31/10/2009 10:47:13 PM 618 Views

It has, yes, but that doesn't make it realistic. Legolas - 01/11/2009 11:16:19 AM 947 Views

Re: It has, yes, but that doesn't make it realistic. fionwe1987 - 05/11/2009 02:01:28 AM 658 Views

Re: It has, yes, but that doesn't make it realistic. Legolas - 05/11/2009 02:09:26 PM 683 Views

I agree with most of your post but I have a nitpick Icarium - 06/11/2009 02:08:31 AM 558 Views

Re: It has, yes, but that doesn't make it realistic. fionwe1987 - 06/11/2009 05:57:12 AM 726 Views

While I do prefer Mary Sue Egwene to Idiot!Egwene (Books 1-11), I'd much rather have Human!Egwene Icarium - 03/11/2009 03:22:25 PM 1358 Views

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<quote id="43515">
<quote id="41725">
Firstly, the amount of women who are depicted as having half a brain is very, very small indeed. What about all the rest? And secondly, let's not forget that Egwene *is* just an Accepted in Tar Valon's eyes, and a rebel to boot. In a less hierarchic society, that might not have been so much of a problem, but considering the way novices and Accepted are treated in earlier books, it makes the ease with which Egwene gets Aes Sedai and even Sitters to consider her an equal or even superior fairly exaggerated. And Tar Valon, unlike Salidar, has not had time to get used to an Amyrlin raised from Accepted, or to semi-full sisters like Theodrin, or to uber-strong and mature novices like Sharina.</quote>
The number of woman depicted as having brains who are also in power is not all that small. And that is the subset that we saw.
As for Egwene gaining respect... yes no one would take advise from a normal Accepted. Because a normal Accepted would be too scared to give advise. Egwene might have had the title of Novice, but she never behaved like one. For over a month, the AS tried to drub her down, make her behave like a Novice. But she simply refused, and when they tested to see if this upstart was merely being stubborn or actually had any sense, she showed that she was no baby.
Add to this her debate with Elaida, Silviana standing up for her, and the Seanchan attack and how she predicted and handled it, it isn't so surprising that these women started respecting her.
<quote id="41609">
Making it all the more interesting that we hear or see *nothing* of Mesaana or any Black sisters during Egwene's one-woman-war, wouldn't you say? They've managed to exacerbate tensions between the Ajahs for months or even a year (I'm a bit fuzzy on the timeline), sowing chaos and division, and then when Egwene starts trying to bridge those gaps and is exceptionally - imho unreasonably, in your opinion evidently not - successful, they do precisely nothing about it.</quote>
Huh? Do you remember a certain Black called Katerine amusingly announcing to Egwene that her freedom was ended and that she had to serve in the kitchen from now on?
<quote>That they were blindsided by Egwene's move against them based on Verin's information, I'll buy, as they had no way of seeing it coming, but one really has to wonder why they did nothing to undermine Egwene's attempts to undo their work.</quote>
They did, so I'm at a complete loss as to why you think to the contrary.
<quote id="41609">
The fact that you state that pretty much underlines my point. You put Egwene in the same category as Cadsuane, which for a *reader* is a fair thing to do, as we've seen Egwene and know what she's capable of, and because in fantasy young people take up positions usually reserved for much more experienced people all the time. The Salidar Aes Sedai have had some time to get used to her being Amyrlin, as well. The Tar Valon ones have not, and the idea of an Accepted being in the same category as Cadsuane is completely laughable for them. Or should have been, anyway.</quote>
Well they never equated her to Cadsuane. More importantly, they <i>did</i> laugh her off. However, she did not let that deter her at all, and just continued doing her thing, providing sense and leadership when required.
In the final discussion between the Ajah Heads, it is not just her actions, but that fact that she did them even though Elaida restricted her so much, even when she was locked in a box and beaten regularly, that cinches the argument in her favor.  
<quote>I mean, it's kind of like some 25-year old bloke walking into the US Senate and telling them everything they're doing wrong - and the Senate listening to him.</quote>
They did not listen to her from the first day. It took them more than a month to see her worth. 
<quote id="41609">
Certainly, that's what the book says happened. Whether one finds that credible or realistic is something else. I don't think it's unrealistic that Egwene rallied the novices and went to fight, and as someone has said somewhere, it was important for her to exorcise her demons. I do think it's unrealistic that most other Aes Sedai, including Adelorna at that, are so useless, and of course one has to wonder how she can get her hands on that sa'angreal so easily. </quote>
Why were women like Adelorna useless? Because the Tower has not had to engage multiple channelers in combat since the Trolloc Wars two thousand years ago. And they were divided, providing small pockets of resistance that the Seanchan were easily able to overcome. In places though, women like Saerin and Seaine gathered pockets of resistance that countered the Seanchan well enough.

As for the wards in the store-rooms mysteriously disappearing, it was a continuity error, I think.
</quote>

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