Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987....
fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 01/11/2009 04:30:21 AM
That is an inherently fallacious argument from authority. Why don't you point out a place where I ever claim a character is great or flawed because of another character's assessment. Secondly, what is Verin saying, other than noting Egwene's success? Anyone could see how far she had come. That does not make her any less of a scumbag. It is Cannoli here, not Sidious. You need more than success in gaining rank to mean anything to me.
Why doesn't another character's assessment matter, though? And Verin's statement that she riled up her (Black) associates is a statement of fact, backed by the fact that in one of the first instances of Egwene trying to bridge the gaps in the Tower, a Black was present and had to do what Egwene suggested.
You're right that anyone could see sense and do what Egwene did. Heck, Saerin, or Tarna would have come up with these ideas with their eyes closed.
As I said elsewhere, they had two disadvantages. One, they couldn't go from Ajah to Ajah. Two, they were themselves caught up in the pettiness and infighting, and these had come too far along before they realized that had happened to the Tower.
So, Egwene provided fresh perspective, and yes, it was Elaida's blunder which let her do that. But in her position, not every person is going to continue to speak to Aes Sedai and give counsel when doing so results in beatings and penance, rather than reasonable acceptance, more often than not. A Cadsuane or Nynaeve would have provided the same perspcetive, but would have completely lacked the patience to deal with these idiot women. Egwene remained invisible to Elaida, but was able to encourage cooperation by speaking to members of each Ajah in a language they could understand, making each see that their Ajah's purpose was well suited to heal the Tower.
Frankly, the only other character I can see having success in a similar scale is Elayne.
Yes, she does improve herself in this book. But her taking action anyone could take is not inconsistant with what I had said about her previous actions. There is absolutely nothing inconsistant, and the two things you cite have nothing to do with each other, nor are they mutually exclusive, EVEN IF they were true.
You must realize Cannoli, that if your reaction to Egwene improving in this book is to post a pages long rant against her, then your perspective is wonky, and no one can be blamed for thinking you were blindly criticizing Egwene.
As for taking action anyone could take... didn't you praise Elayne for increasing the size of the Queen's Guard and using Gateways to supply Caemlyn? Both are total no-brainers, and any Queen would have taken such actions. It is hardly a stroke of genius to expand your army when you are the leader of the third and weakest faction fighting for a throne! I, however, can see that being absorbed in tradition and a myopic worldview prevented Dyelin from approving such action. Much as so many women in the Tower failed to see how entirely normal Egwene's suggested course of action to heal the Tower was. And so, I too praise Elayne for making these decisions that expedited her ascension to the Lion Throne.
Also, I think you praised Elayne for not running back to the palace and instead using her rescue force to encircle Arymilla? That is a tactical decision that requires no great thought. Anyone whose primary priority was success in the quest for the throne would have suggested that. Birgette did not because she saw protecting Elayne as the primary priority.
Egwene too has done many things that any Aes Sedai could have. But they did not, caught up in tradition or pride or the nets of the Shadow. And she had some of these issues too, but overcame them and rose to the challenge, undoing Mesaana's work and saving the Tower from complete disaster in the hands of the Seanchan.
I blame Egwene because that is all that she has to go on.
It seems to me more like you think Egwene's cause is less worthy than the others, thus her achievements are inherently cheaper, in your eyes.
While it is a whole other debate whether the Aes Sedai are worth the effort of saving, the point remains that Egwene has done a good job of ending strife within this organization. We shall see how she wields its power now.
Well Brandon Sanderson has officially killed off the last volume of the Epic Saga of the Chosen One.
30/10/2009 02:36:19 AM
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I skimmed cannoli's predictable rant. I disagree. I LOVED EVERY CHAPTER!
30/10/2009 03:29:24 AM
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I liked her chapters. Mainly because they gave her something to do.
30/10/2009 09:43:58 PM
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I adore Brandon Sanderson.
30/10/2009 05:05:11 AM
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Re: I adore Brandon Sanderson.
30/10/2009 02:45:03 PM
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Re: I adore Brandon Sanderson.
30/10/2009 04:34:53 PM
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Ditto. Thought he was a breath of fresh air to the series.
30/10/2009 03:27:43 PM
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If renewal means someone grossly unfamiliar with the series, sure.
30/10/2009 06:26:19 PM
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Everything up to tGS
30/10/2009 06:25:28 PM
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Re: Everything up to tGS
30/10/2009 08:21:33 PM
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What on earth makes you think I dislike it?
31/10/2009 05:25:07 AM
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General impression lately I guess.
31/10/2009 04:38:29 PM
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Don't agree completely but what I do want to see is
30/10/2009 07:12:54 AM
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so I guess ...
30/10/2009 02:48:10 PM
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You want a friend like Mat
30/10/2009 06:33:47 PM
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Yes, he will pull thru 4 u in the end, but Matt still needs to grow up. and fast *NM*
30/10/2009 07:32:28 PM
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might I add..
30/10/2009 08:30:24 AM
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Re: might I add..
30/10/2009 10:41:39 AM
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I sit somewhere in the middle, she's improved, but still many flaws
30/10/2009 11:35:47 AM
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Like others don't have flaws?
30/10/2009 02:58:08 PM
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EVERYTHING is handed to her on a platter!
30/10/2009 06:41:02 PM
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Touched a nerve did I?
30/10/2009 07:19:00 PM
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Re: Touched a nerve did I?
31/10/2009 06:36:33 AM
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Re: Touched a nerve did I?
31/10/2009 09:33:34 AM
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Bah
30/10/2009 03:36:42 PM
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Actually, Elaida WILL reveal Traveling. We've seen countless times AS broken easily by the Seanchan. *NM*
30/10/2009 05:28:06 PM
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More than likely, but if anyone could avoid giving it up it would be stubborn, self rightous Elaida.
30/10/2009 09:20:31 PM
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A personal question: Cannoli, are you threatened by a powerful woman?
30/10/2009 07:13:30 PM
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Obviously.
31/10/2009 05:37:52 AM
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I'm afraid of the ooze left over when I take spam out of a can *shiver* *NM*
31/10/2009 05:39:03 AM
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Well...
31/10/2009 05:56:56 AM
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Countries are real, normal and natural things. The White Tower has no proven value.
31/10/2009 06:52:48 AM
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Tar Valon is a nation
31/10/2009 09:20:43 AM
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The Aes Sedai are not. The Tower as a whole rules the polity of Tar Valon.
31/10/2009 11:34:42 PM
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The "Elaida's election was illegal because of Black Ajah Sitters" is really an absurd argument
01/11/2009 12:06:32 AM
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It wasn't absurd. Just clever...
01/11/2009 03:33:22 AM
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I wasn't saying the rebels had no cause for rebellion. Just that the election *was* legal.
01/11/2009 10:38:59 AM
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Hmm.....
06/11/2009 04:18:14 PM
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I take it she'll carefully avoid bringing up the war vote, then. *NM*
08/11/2009 12:47:21 AM
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Re: Well Brandon Sanderson has officially killed off the last volume of the Epic Saga of the Chosen
30/10/2009 11:38:24 PM
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The harbor chain incident was no less stupid because it helped her
31/10/2009 05:40:20 AM
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It must be embarassing to be on the same side as such dingbats.
31/10/2009 07:18:42 AM
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Re: It must be embarassing to be on the same side as such dingbats.
31/10/2009 09:28:16 AM
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Don't expect rationality from Cannoli...
31/10/2009 02:01:45 PM
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Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987....
01/11/2009 01:07:06 AM
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Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987....
01/11/2009 04:30:21 AM
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Re: It must be embarassing to be on the same side as such dingbats.
01/11/2009 12:31:10 AM
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I have one question
01/11/2009 07:12:23 AM
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Capture, NOT kill, and she herself said the sa'angreal made that impossible.
01/11/2009 07:59:44 AM
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Re: The harbor chain incident was no less stupid because it helped her
31/10/2009 04:31:29 PM
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I don't agree with all of that, but yes, Egwene's successes are a little too much.
31/10/2009 04:30:32 PM
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I too wondered when exactly Elaida took an overdose of crazy pills
01/11/2009 06:46:16 AM
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There were a few instances in the book where Egwene really bothered me.
02/11/2009 12:54:10 AM
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Poor cannoli; give it a rest you ridiculous numsquatz
07/11/2009 06:43:10 PM
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Yes, my long string of complaints about Sanderson has reached the limit.
09/11/2009 05:22:23 PM
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Re: Yes, my long string of complaints about Sanderson has reached the limit.
10/11/2009 07:36:46 AM
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