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Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 01/11/2009 04:30:21 AM
That is an inherently fallacious argument from authority. Why don't you point out a place where I ever claim a character is great or flawed because of another character's assessment. Secondly, what is Verin saying, other than noting Egwene's success? Anyone could see how far she had come. That does not make her any less of a scumbag. It is Cannoli here, not Sidious. You need more than success in gaining rank to mean anything to me.

Why doesn't another character's assessment matter, though? And Verin's statement that she riled up her (Black) associates is a statement of fact, backed by the fact that in one of the first instances of Egwene trying to bridge the gaps in the Tower, a Black was present and had to do what Egwene suggested.
You're right that anyone could see sense and do what Egwene did. Heck, Saerin, or Tarna would have come up with these ideas with their eyes closed.
As I said elsewhere, they had two disadvantages. One, they couldn't go from Ajah to Ajah. Two, they were themselves caught up in the pettiness and infighting, and these had come too far along before they realized that had happened to the Tower.
So, Egwene provided fresh perspective, and yes, it was Elaida's blunder which let her do that. But in her position, not every person is going to continue to speak to Aes Sedai and give counsel when doing so results in beatings and penance, rather than reasonable acceptance, more often than not. A Cadsuane or Nynaeve would have provided the same perspcetive, but would have completely lacked the patience to deal with these idiot women. Egwene remained invisible to Elaida, but was able to encourage cooperation by speaking to members of each Ajah in a language they could understand, making each see that their Ajah's purpose was well suited to heal the Tower.
Frankly, the only other character I can see having success in a similar scale is Elayne.
Yes, she does improve herself in this book. But her taking action anyone could take is not inconsistant with what I had said about her previous actions. There is absolutely nothing inconsistant, and the two things you cite have nothing to do with each other, nor are they mutually exclusive, EVEN IF they were true.

You must realize Cannoli, that if your reaction to Egwene improving in this book is to post a pages long rant against her, then your perspective is wonky, and no one can be blamed for thinking you were blindly criticizing Egwene.
As for taking action anyone could take... didn't you praise Elayne for increasing the size of the Queen's Guard and using Gateways to supply Caemlyn? Both are total no-brainers, and any Queen would have taken such actions. It is hardly a stroke of genius to expand your army when you are the leader of the third and weakest faction fighting for a throne! I, however, can see that being absorbed in tradition and a myopic worldview prevented Dyelin from approving such action. Much as so many women in the Tower failed to see how entirely normal Egwene's suggested course of action to heal the Tower was. And so, I too praise Elayne for making these decisions that expedited her ascension to the Lion Throne.
Also, I think you praised Elayne for not running back to the palace and instead using her rescue force to encircle Arymilla? That is a tactical decision that requires no great thought. Anyone whose primary priority was success in the quest for the throne would have suggested that. Birgette did not because she saw protecting Elayne as the primary priority.
Egwene too has done many things that any Aes Sedai could have. But they did not, caught up in tradition or pride or the nets of the Shadow. And she had some of these issues too, but overcame them and rose to the challenge, undoing Mesaana's work and saving the Tower from complete disaster in the hands of the Seanchan.
I blame Egwene because that is all that she has to go on.

It seems to me more like you think Egwene's cause is less worthy than the others, thus her achievements are inherently cheaper, in your eyes.

While it is a whole other debate whether the Aes Sedai are worth the effort of saving, the point remains that Egwene has done a good job of ending strife within this organization. We shall see how she wields its power now.
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Well Brandon Sanderson has officially killed off the last volume of the Epic Saga of the Chosen One. - 30/10/2009 02:36:19 AM 2527 Views
Life in unfair, just let Egwene have it already. - 30/10/2009 03:11:04 AM 918 Views
I skimmed cannoli's predictable rant. I disagree. I LOVED EVERY CHAPTER! - 30/10/2009 03:29:24 AM 889 Views
Agreed! *NM* - 30/10/2009 03:47:52 AM 533 Views
I liked her chapters. Mainly because they gave her something to do. - 30/10/2009 09:43:58 PM 794 Views
I adore Brandon Sanderson. - 30/10/2009 05:05:11 AM 903 Views
Me too - 30/10/2009 10:38:52 AM 960 Views
Exactly. - 30/10/2009 04:33:11 PM 805 Views
Re: I adore Brandon Sanderson. - 30/10/2009 02:45:03 PM 981 Views
Re: I adore Brandon Sanderson. - 30/10/2009 04:34:53 PM 834 Views
I think he meant Cannoli, not you, Seriana. *NM* - 30/10/2009 05:30:17 PM 465 Views
Ahhh. - 30/10/2009 09:15:14 PM 812 Views
Re: Ahhh. - 31/10/2009 03:51:14 AM 801 Views
Re: Ahhh. - 01/11/2009 06:37:41 AM 835 Views
Ditto. Thought he was a breath of fresh air to the series. - 30/10/2009 03:27:43 PM 787 Views
If renewal means someone grossly unfamiliar with the series, sure. - 30/10/2009 06:26:19 PM 1315 Views
Everything up to tGS - 30/10/2009 06:25:28 PM 1017 Views
Re: Everything up to tGS - 30/10/2009 08:21:33 PM 996 Views
What on earth makes you think I dislike it? - 31/10/2009 05:25:07 AM 905 Views
General impression lately I guess. - 31/10/2009 04:38:29 PM 811 Views
Re: General impression lately I guess. - 31/10/2009 10:41:06 PM 842 Views
Thanks. - 01/11/2009 06:32:12 AM 924 Views
double post, hate my computer. - 30/10/2009 08:24:12 PM 912 Views
Don't agree completely but what I do want to see is - 30/10/2009 07:12:54 AM 792 Views
so I guess ... - 30/10/2009 02:48:10 PM 1011 Views
You want a friend like Mat - 30/10/2009 06:33:47 PM 804 Views
might I add.. - 30/10/2009 08:30:24 AM 759 Views
Re: might I add.. - 30/10/2009 10:41:39 AM 858 Views
Re: might I add.. - 30/10/2009 06:47:17 PM 871 Views
There is a difference between defending your home from attack - 31/10/2009 03:34:57 PM 786 Views
I sit somewhere in the middle, she's improved, but still many flaws - 30/10/2009 11:35:47 AM 860 Views
Like others don't have flaws? - 30/10/2009 02:58:08 PM 852 Views
EVERYTHING is handed to her on a platter! - 30/10/2009 06:41:02 PM 884 Views
Touched a nerve did I? - 30/10/2009 07:19:00 PM 980 Views
Re: Touched a nerve did I? - 30/10/2009 07:24:41 PM 891 Views
Re: Touched a nerve did I? - 30/10/2009 07:31:14 PM 948 Views
Re: Touched a nerve did I? - 31/10/2009 06:36:33 AM 813 Views
Re: Touched a nerve did I? - 31/10/2009 09:33:34 AM 854 Views
And you aren't? - 01/11/2009 12:42:50 AM 806 Views
Seems to me you're both right. - 01/11/2009 07:45:12 PM 799 Views
Bah - 30/10/2009 03:36:42 PM 880 Views
wait a sec... - 30/10/2009 04:31:56 PM 956 Views
Now now! Let's take off the rose-tinted glasses for a minute. - 30/10/2009 05:21:07 PM 777 Views
Re: Bah - 30/10/2009 06:49:47 PM 919 Views
Rant on! Rant on! - 30/10/2009 12:54:16 PM 760 Views
Re: Rant on! Rant on! - 30/10/2009 03:18:44 PM 815 Views
A personal question: Cannoli, are you threatened by a powerful woman? - 30/10/2009 07:13:30 PM 902 Views
Obviously. - 31/10/2009 05:37:52 AM 774 Views
Well... - 31/10/2009 05:56:56 AM 729 Views
Countries are real, normal and natural things. The White Tower has no proven value. - 31/10/2009 06:52:48 AM 828 Views
Tar Valon is a nation - 31/10/2009 09:20:43 AM 805 Views
The "Elaida's election was illegal because of Black Ajah Sitters" is really an absurd argument - 01/11/2009 12:06:32 AM 877 Views
It wasn't absurd. Just clever... - 01/11/2009 03:33:22 AM 908 Views
I wasn't saying the rebels had no cause for rebellion. Just that the election *was* legal. - 01/11/2009 10:38:59 AM 898 Views
Hmm..... - 06/11/2009 04:18:14 PM 748 Views
I take it she'll carefully avoid bringing up the war vote, then. *NM* - 08/11/2009 12:47:21 AM 352 Views
Not a problem... - 08/11/2009 06:17:39 AM 829 Views
Are you blinded by a pair of teats? - 31/10/2009 07:17:44 AM 974 Views
Re: Well Brandon Sanderson has officially killed off the last volume of the Epic Saga of the Chosen - 30/10/2009 11:38:24 PM 907 Views
The harbor chain incident was no less stupid because it helped her - 31/10/2009 05:40:20 AM 759 Views
It must be embarassing to be on the same side as such dingbats. - 31/10/2009 07:18:42 AM 906 Views
*snort* *NM* - 31/10/2009 07:19:49 AM 466 Views
Re: It must be embarassing to be on the same side as such dingbats. - 31/10/2009 09:28:16 AM 877 Views
Don't expect rationality from Cannoli... - 31/10/2009 02:01:45 PM 943 Views
Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... - 01/11/2009 01:07:06 AM 918 Views
Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... - 01/11/2009 04:30:21 AM 905 Views
Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... - 01/11/2009 08:41:58 AM 875 Views
Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... - 05/11/2009 02:40:16 AM 843 Views
Re: It must be embarassing to be on the same side as such dingbats. - 01/11/2009 12:31:10 AM 818 Views
I have one question - 01/11/2009 07:12:23 AM 858 Views
Capture, NOT kill, and she herself said the sa'angreal made that impossible. - 01/11/2009 07:59:44 AM 838 Views
Capture OR kill - 01/11/2009 09:12:08 AM 892 Views
Egwene isn't ta'veren - 31/10/2009 05:57:54 AM 762 Views
Re: Egwene isn't ta'veren - 31/10/2009 11:01:54 AM 782 Views
Events do seem to suggest otherwise. *NM* - 31/10/2009 04:40:42 PM 489 Views
I see Cannoll is still going strong about Egwene... - 01/11/2009 08:40:17 PM 847 Views
There were a few instances in the book where Egwene really bothered me. - 02/11/2009 12:54:10 AM 803 Views
Egwene's always been a hypocrite - 02/11/2009 02:06:58 PM 979 Views

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