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Re: Which character (besides Rand) has hurt the shadow the most? (my analysis and your opinion) Cannoli Send a noteboard - 17/10/2009 05:26:26 PM
Hard hits directly to the DO
1. Cleansing of Saidin
2. Bowl of the Winds
3. Rand destroying army of darkness in Tarwin's Gap (ushering in spring.)
I would not place that army's destruction so high. It was just one army, after all, and Ba'alzamon seemed indifferent to the loss. I agree that whatever brought the spring would have been a hard blwo, possibly deserving of its place here, but there is no proof that it was the army that did it. For all we know, it could have been something the Green Man did when he destroyed Ba'althamel, or when Rand used the Eye of the World, or when he struck down Ba'alzamon.

Moderately hard hit (Capturing or Destroying one of the Forsaken
1. Balthamel destroyed
2. Aginor destroyed
3. Be'lal destroyed
4. Ishmael destroyed
5. Asmodean Captured
6. Moghedien Captured
7. Lanfear destroyed
8. Rhavin destroyed
9. Samael destroyed
10. A'ran'gar destroyed (I hope I have the right gar)
11. Semirhage captured
12. (Future?) Tower is reunited and chaos that divisions in the WT has been healed. This has not happened yet and does not necessarily concern the Forsaken but in my opinion it is important enough to bump it to the next level.
13. (Future?) Taim's faction defeated and routed (if it occurs in future).
We don't know enough about Taim's faction to ascertain what the Shadow has invested in them to determine how great a loss they are.
In addition, the loss of any of the Forsaken who has been brought back should be scored lower. What was better for the Shadow? Lanfear running around free murdering capable Darkfriends for telling her Rand was "cheating" on her, conspiring to empower the Dragon Reborn and capture one of the Forsaken and learn the secrets he held, and plotting to depose the Dark One with the Choedan Kal, or Cyndane, leashed and obediant in the service of the Nae'blis? How is Sammael's loss a major blow when the Nae'blis himself conspired at it? How can you rank the losses of Lanfear and Asmodean equally, when the former was responsible for effecting the loss of the latter?

You have clearly not thought this through very well!

Small hit but still felt (major plot of shadow foiled)
1. Battle over Falme
2. First battle in Tear
3. Rand rescued at Dumai's wells
4. Halima revealed and forced to flee
5. Seanchen converted from menace to ally with shadow (in future.)
6. Anyone who saves Rand from shadow
7. (Future?) Maseema's reign of chaos is finally broken
These are not that much inferior to the loss of ineffective Forsaken or the removal of obstructive minions from the Shadow's organization! As for points 2 & 3, they both happened with the aid and full contrivance of the Shadow! Someone higher-ranking than SEMIRHAGE ordered a rescue force be sent to help Rand in the first battle in the Stone! Taim, whose fall you think will be a major blow to the Shadow, was the most responsible for the extraordinary outcome of Dumai's Wells. Without him, Rand might still have escaped, but there would have been no defeat of the Shaido.

Glancing blow
1. Breaking the Shaido
2. Forming rebel AS army
3. Forming Legion of Dragon
4. Forming Band of the Red Hand
5. Controlling Andor and building up its armies
6. Great Escape of seafolk
7. Getting rebel AS to march against WT
8. Forming a large army or disrupting a DF or BA plot or exposing or killing BA or DF Ashaman.
How is forming the rebel Aes Sedai army a blow against the Shadow, when the Shadow has been urging on its use, and been disappointed in the failure of Elaida to match it. Breaking the Shaido made them accept Sammael's aid and work for his chaos. Sevanna had no intention of summoning him if she had been successful at Dumai's Wells, but changed her mind as a fall-back plan during the flight of the Shaido. Ther eis no proof that marching the rebels against the Tower was anything but favorably received by the Shadow. Delana was clearly under orders to support Egwene's declaration of war.

With all of that grunt work out of the way. Here are the major candidates.

Perrin
Saved Rand at Dumai's wells and Broke the Shaido. Slowly building an impressive army for the light. Defeating the shadow spawn in the two rivers was impressive but I doubt the shadow cared that much.
Why not? In any event, he had NOTHING to do with saving Rand or breaking the Shaido. Rand escaped well before Perrin showed up, and any time he felt himself (or especially Min) to be in the slightest danger, he would have been Skimming out as fast as he could. The single factor that enabled him to escape was the Shaido attack forcing his captors to divert their attention from him. You could argue that Perrin's efforts hurt that, because if their timing had been different, and forced the Shaido to turn away, the Aes Sedai would not have been pressed so hard, and would have held Rand more tightly! As for breaking the Shaido, he was opposed to Rand's command, and was revolted by the Asha'man. If you refer to his destruction of the gathering at Malden, that had nothing to do with the Shadow, however remarkable an accomplishment on his part. In fact, he facilitated the Seanchan triumph and helped them in clearing a major nuisance from their lands, making them better able to hurt the forces of the Light and less desperate so more likely to give Rand a hard time in making his truce. If they were struggling to fight the Shaido while pressing their conquests, then Rand's truce would have seemed more attractive. There is no proof that the Shaido were anything for the Shadow beyond the unwitting dupes of the now-dead Sammael. In fact, the ONLY known Shaido Darkfriend was among Rand's followers, which makes sense, for the same reason the Shadow has no one among the Kin - they want people in position to strike at the leadership, not exiles and outcasts who will fight the Shadow's enemies of their own volition.

Mat
Blew the horn of valere to delay the Seanchen enough that they could come into play for the side of light and not just cause chaos. Played an important but still incidental role in securing the bowl of the winds. Saved Tuon from Semirhage by kidnapping her. Started the great escape of the seafolk. Started the band of the red hand. Rescued the wondergirls. He also won more then a few battles, but none of them really hurt the shadow that much.
No less than putting the rebel army of Salidar into play or destroying the Shaido at Malden! Mat thwarted Semirhage's dupes who would have killed Tuon as an imposter and Couladin who was set on his path with Asmodean's help. Did you actually read the books, or just a sketchy outline?

Nynaeve
She was involved in TWO of 3 great events that directly hit the shadow. She was a major player in the Bowl of the Winds and a smaller player in the cleansing of Saidin. Further she captured Moghedien and was a major player in destroying Rahvin. Further she was a major player in foiling Semirhage's plan against the Seanchen and in capturing Semirhage. She has captured a BA as well. No other character besides Moiraine and Rand has hurt the forsaken so badly.
Well, even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

Moiraine
Destroyed Bel'al and Lanfear. Saved Rand's life numerous times. Set everything in motion.
Saved it once, aside from some incidental Healing which many people could have done. Bel'al did not want Rand dead yet, and given that Rand was able to kill Bel'al's boss with Callandor, what chance did Bel'al really have of taking down Rand once he did what Bel'al wanted? Also was responsible for Rand BEING in danger in the first place the one time she did save him, since it was only through her insistence that he was even in the same country as the threat in the first place! Without Moiraine demanding they go all the way from the docks, he'd have already been in Andor by the time Lanfear found out, if ever. For all we know she was following him around and only took advantage of Kadere's proximity to question him. And perhaps he would not have thought of Rand & Aviendha if they had not passed in front of him seconds before Lanfear showed up.

Elayne
Major player in the bowl of the winds. (She is perhaps the most important since she set it in motion.) Participated in the capture of Moggy (through her a'dam). Build's up the single largest nations armies and brings it against the DO. (Dyelin or any of the others were too meek to do it.)
And this would be the second time.

Egwene
Held the rebel AS together and not at each others throats despite what Halima was doing. Kept the rebels focused on WT. Help organized the rebel army. If she succeeds in organizing the WT and making it stronger then ever against the shadow then she will move up to making a hard blow. But for now...
Egwene al'Vere gets praise the way Barack Hussein Obama gets Nobel Prizes - entirely on speculation, and statement of intent. And what do you mean "despite what Halima was doing"? Giving Egwene massages? Telling the world that Egwene's rival was a Darkfriend? Halima was NOT trying to split up Egwene's faction, and she was upset at the possibility of their defeat, enough to plan a rescue of Ewgene! This is like crediting France for their stout defense of the Pyrenees in 1940.

Itulralde
Struck a major blow against the Seanchen slowing them down until they can be brought into the side of the light.
We'll have to see how this plays out. It could actually turn into a problem between him and Rand. And how can you call stopping the Shaido a good thing that will facilitate the truce, while earlier praising efforts that help them consolidate against the most dangerous forces remaining in the lands they have conquered?

I still don't know if there is one main person after Rand, but after this I am leaning more toward Nynaeve then before.
I am surprised for two reasons 1. That you needed all this effort to come to an obvious conclusion and 2. That such a bizarre set of rankings enabled you to come to the right conclusion anyway!
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Which character (besides Rand) has hurt the shadow the most? (my analysis and your opinion) - 17/10/2009 05:16:34 AM 1472 Views
Nyneave wins hands down - 17/10/2009 05:22:08 AM 740 Views
Nyneave has done more - 17/10/2009 06:42:26 AM 708 Views
Nynaeve! - 17/10/2009 04:12:00 PM 658 Views
I'd say Mat - 17/10/2009 04:40:48 PM 727 Views
are you sure? - 17/10/2009 04:48:01 PM 746 Views
Not to downplay Nynaeve - 17/10/2009 08:40:45 PM 741 Views
Beg to differ, the "endless summer" was VERY important to the shadow - 17/10/2009 10:44:15 PM 934 Views
Re: Beg to differ, the "endless summer" was VERY important to the shadow - 18/10/2009 11:10:20 PM 660 Views
believe what you want, but if the weather hadn't changed when it did TG would be over by now. *NM* - 18/10/2009 11:56:09 PM 321 Views
Actually, there might be a better reason for why it mattered. - 10/12/2009 07:03:32 PM 708 Views
Immaterial. - 10/12/2009 07:48:51 PM 579 Views
It has to be Moiraine - 17/10/2009 05:00:32 PM 772 Views
Actually there were a couple of versions that happened, and Moiraine came in neither. - 17/10/2009 05:32:52 PM 829 Views
So you think the story would have panned out - 17/10/2009 05:46:46 PM 592 Views
None. *NM* - 17/10/2009 08:43:08 PM 309 Views
That's highly subjective - 17/10/2009 08:52:17 PM 648 Views
Re: That's highly subjective - 17/10/2009 08:54:52 PM 589 Views
I think you know exactly what I mean. - 17/10/2009 10:53:40 PM 608 Views
All of them - 18/10/2009 12:09:55 AM 725 Views
Those were only visions - 18/10/2009 12:45:32 AM 615 Views
They may have only been visions... - 18/10/2009 09:19:05 AM 663 Views
"Every possible outcome to a given situation is the actual outcome somewhere" - 18/10/2009 04:45:44 PM 611 Views
Re: "Every possible outcome to a given situation is the actual outcome somewhere" - 18/10/2009 06:51:42 PM 747 Views
That all goes without saying - 18/10/2009 07:26:06 PM 536 Views
I disagree - 18/10/2009 07:58:37 PM 629 Views
Re: I disagree - 18/10/2009 10:04:27 PM 622 Views
It's almost irrelevant- the Dragon Reborn was Foretold - 18/10/2009 02:07:47 AM 584 Views
Does that mean he'd win? - 18/10/2009 04:47:56 PM 624 Views
IIRC the prophecies don't say anything about whether the DR will win. - 18/10/2009 05:05:03 PM 566 Views
Not really what I was arguing. - 18/10/2009 05:30:05 PM 590 Views
Good points - 18/10/2009 06:14:08 AM 688 Views
the BCS is not a good system *NM* - 18/10/2009 09:08:25 AM 309 Views
Re: Which character (besides Rand) has hurt the shadow the most? (my analysis and your opinion) - 17/10/2009 05:26:26 PM 846 Views
Someone needs to re-adjust their meds - 18/10/2009 05:55:58 AM 719 Views
I wouldn't bother justifying yourself to him - 18/10/2009 05:41:42 PM 619 Views
That is true for most people if not all - 18/10/2009 11:28:44 PM 638 Views
He's got a point though... - 21/10/2009 11:18:38 AM 699 Views
"Always fight back! Never justify" Internet discussion rules 101. - 21/10/2009 04:37:32 PM 603 Views
Damn skippy! *NM* - 21/10/2009 11:17:36 AM 298 Views
Ishamael/Moridin - 17/10/2009 06:44:35 PM 858 Views
Good call - 17/10/2009 10:55:38 PM 684 Views
Re: Ishamael/Moridin - 18/10/2009 09:21:29 AM 758 Views
You make it sound very simple - 18/10/2009 10:47:57 PM 671 Views
No - it is very simple - 19/10/2009 05:01:44 AM 647 Views
Not necessarily- - 19/10/2009 09:22:16 PM 652 Views
surely a draw meant resealing - 20/10/2009 03:56:49 PM 590 Views
I'm going with Nynaeve. - 18/10/2009 06:23:55 PM 698 Views
Re: I'm going with Nynaeve. - 18/10/2009 10:56:06 PM 768 Views
Re: I'm going with Nynaeve. - 18/10/2009 11:22:36 PM 730 Views

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