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Re: Some comments. Orlin_Artemi Send a noteboard - 16/10/2009 03:15:36 PM
"If Air barriers were infinitely strong then why did it take so many Aes Sedai to create the barrier to fend off the Shaido?"

Maybe because each Sister could only make a barrier sufficient to cover a certain area, and due to this size limit and the fact that they were under attack, it took multiple Sisters to erect defenses.


This is a tough one. It's entirely plausible that the issue in this circumstance was solely a matter of the Aes Sedai's inability to cover the entire area by themselves (in fact, this was most likely the case) but by the same token I don't think that there is any true evidence that supports that all walls of Air are completely impenetrable, either.


"It would be helpful if one Aes Sedai could encircle the whole area but clearly they couldn't and needed a combined effort."

I want to note that the Asha'man ran into this problem - when they created and raised their barrier, a single Asha'man couldn't generate a barrier surrounding everyone - each had to make a "piece", push them together, and then raise them in on concentrated effort.



This scene seems to me like the closest thing that you have toward cold hard proof that the shields woven by channelers are completely impenetrable. After all, a raging army of Aiel were beating wildly against the barricade created by the Asha'man to no effect. The only argument I can work against it would be that the sheer number of Asha'man might have been what kept the wall of Hardened Air from being battered down.

Still, there are some variable factors that are worth pointing out. For one, there is nothing to say that the barricade created at Dumai's Wells was composed of only one layer of shieding. It could be that many layers of Hardened Air were stacked together to create a barricade that would prevent the Aiel from being able to break through. The other variable factor is that the Asha'man were all concentrating deliberately against the weaves.

It may be that if a wall of Hardened Air takes damage, a channeler who is actively concentrating on it can simply re-weave whatever threads were broken by intense physical impact. In the example of Dumai's Wells, the channeler would simply need to push a layer of Aiel back long enough to set the busted weaves back into place.


"We've also seen the Aes Sedai link to a circle of 13 when they thought Sammael was attacking Salidar, and they said they could stop a 'herd of charging bulls'.

This implies an attack IMHO. The example you quote is somewhat like comparing a boxer's ability to punch and knock out a single opponent versus fighting multiple opponents at once. For example, the club of Air Nynaeve used to drive off the pickpocket that hit Elayne with a cudgel would not be able to stop a herd of charging bulls - she could only hit one or a couple, and not a herd, since even the strongest channelers have a limit (which is why even Rand has never been shown to be able to blow away entire armies with a single attack until he gained Callandor). But a Circle of 13 could generate the same effect with more potency. The key point is, though, that the effect of hardening the air is still possible...but the quantity of opponents/targets and the size of the area that can be affected is determined by how much area your weaves of Air can take up, which is determined by your talents and your inherent strength with the Power.



To avoid confusion, I think it's best to cite this one:

The flows of Power Anaiya wielded through the link--and those of other circles--would have had no trouble stopping a herd of charging bulls, much less a kettle that took it in mind to fly.

-Lord of Chaos, page 354


When I hear the words "stop a herd of charging bulls," my mind jumps immediately toward an implied defense, not an implied attack. In the situation that is being described, the Aes Sedai are walking around the Salidar camp, defending themselves from a miasma that has animated several objects and set them against the residents. In some situations we have shifts that are strangling women or yoking them unbidden into the air, while in others we have examples of pots and pans careening across the grounds to smack people over the head.

Even so, if anything is implied to be attacking in this quote, it's the "herd of charging bulls" that Nynaeve seemed confident Anaiya would be able to defend against if the need should arise. The operative word in this phrase is "stop." Why would any Aes Sedai take measures to "stop" an offensive charge by drubbing each attacker individually with a club of air when it would be much simpler to weave a massive barricade with the One Power?

Don't get me wrong - I know where you're coming from. If we are operating under the assumption that a shield woven of Air is impossible to destroy, it would make sense to say that the sheer volume of the power that the Aes Sedai were holding would be enough to take an attacking force apart individually - but I think if this were the intended suggestion, it would be much more readily apparent. Instead, this statement seems to suggest that, given the power at Anaiya's fingertips, she would be able to defend against an onslaught that would normally overwhelm her.


"I'm quite sure an air barrier is the same. An average female can probably deflect an enormous force, so it would take incredible force to break it - maybe too much for any man. But it is possible, and I think it's been shown already."

I don't think so - I think what happened in the Black Ajah scene was that Lan surprised them since he was close enough to enter their barrier unseen, the Sisters tried to weave something but he moved too fast for it to be completed, and then they smacked him away with Air.



This is a really tough one, and I am partial to Sidious' opinion going into it. The trouble is that the entire fight that you are both referencing is shown from Mat's POV, so we don't see any channeling whatsoever. We learn in the beginning of the encounter that Nynaeve is shielded and the Kin that have accompanied her are too afraid to take action against Ispan and Falion or their henchman. For the readers who want specifics, I'll cite this episode as well.

Lan moved. He did not draw his sword, and against Aes Sedai he should have no chance if he had, no chance in any case, but one moment he was standing still and the next moment he had thrown himself at the pair. Just before he struck, he grunted as though hit hard, but he crashed into them, carrying both Black sisters to the dusty floor.

Every part of me wants to say that this is evidence that Lan has successfully crashed through a wall of Air, but you have raised a credible point. It could be that Ispan or Falion reacted out sheer surprise and simply struck out with a hard hammerblow before Lan could tackle them. This would be consistent with the way that Lan winds up on his knees afterward in a good deal of apparent pain -- but so would him crashing through a wall of solid Air.


And this is not even taking into account that it may depend on the effect you generate - perhaps a net of Air can be forced apart, but a web, cocoon, wrap or solid grip of Air cannot. Weaves are not identical across each channeler, and there are a number of variables to consider.



If you hold to the contention that bands of Air used to bind someone's hands together are indestructable by the sheer virtue of being power wrought, how can you suggest that a net of Air could be forced apart? I would have to think that it would be an all or nothing deal -- it is either possible or impossible to physically damage a flow of Air. It may be that a net of Air is significantly weaker than a wall of Air, but if all flows of Air are completely impossible to destroy, that places a great deal of power in the hands of any given channeler.

Here's a thought. Do you think that Elayne could weave a barricade that is sturdy enough to protect her from a Cannon at point-blank range? What about Siuan Sanche?

We all know of the example where Siuan Sanche attempts to hoist Gareth Bryne up into the air and fails because she does not have sufficient strength to lift him -- but we don't know whether or not that means that she could have held him there indefinately no matter how fiercely he struggled.

There is another example that comes to mind, but I'm getting groggy and don't want to look it up. In Crown of Swords, there is a scene where Rand weaves a bridge of Air (essentially another form of Hardened Air when you get down to the wire) and Min states that she trusts him. Afterward, Rand morbidly begins to think that if he had tried to weave that bridge even a pace more it would have collapsed under their combined weight. This might be an indication that the smaller the hardened space, the more difficult it is to destroy -- but it might very well also be one of those strange catches that comes with the One Power that is not allowed because it is too close to flight.

That's all I've got at the moment -- thanks for the helpful suggestions and replies!


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