Re: Thoughts on LoC - Edit 1
Before modification by Cannoli at 08/10/2009 12:59:42 PM
...and I have completely forgotten my point after just a few days. All I can remember is that I wondered how differently some things might have gone had Rand been less arrogant. Not things like meeting with the Aes Sedai, but, say, talking to Taim. And if he's justified in every scene of the book that he's had that attitude in, then that's great, I'd like that. Yet he's still arrogant - something I never believed whenever Egwene said it until this book.
Better than her character later in the books. I couldn't understand how she went from being like Aiel to an Aes Sedai politician so quickly.
There was never a difference. Aes Sedai politician (double-dealing, self-interested egotist) is closest to her true nature. Her "Aiel" persona was an act to get along with the Wise Ones. She's something of a method actor, and buries herself in whatever part she plays, so even she believed in her "Aiel heart" but it was just a cover she sloughed off as easily as she ditched her fun-loving, dancing, don't-worry-about-tomorrow Tinker heart in EotW, which was shortly after she ditched her future-Wisdom-and-current-Women's-Circle-wannabe Two Rivers heart. Which didn't happen until much later. What could Mat do now to save her, assuming he was even around? And Egwene seems to be doing a decent job of saving herself this time around (well, again - she did something that helped in the Stone of Tear); she's making the best of a bad situation. I understand this is hindsight, but if he had carried her away, I can't see how there would be any hope for reuniting the Tower under someone who wasn't as corrupted as Elaida.
You're only looking at it from Egwene's PoV. From Mat's, the Tower was the Tower, and there is no saving it. And he is right. Egwene's hyperbole about the Tower being destroyed is just that. Elaida would have been pulled down eventually and as happened with to two other Amyrlins and in six mutinies in the Tower's history. In the grand scheme of things the few Aes Sedai lost, alienated or punished excessively wouldn't have amounted to much. It might have destroyed the careers of most of the characters from Salidar, but so what? Egwene's belief in the enormity of the threat to the Tower is explained by the very narrowness of her perspective. How much thought has she given to the outside world, except as it affected Aes Sedai or her struggle, since she became Amyrlin? Like, none. Mat understands how trivial a squabble over privileges and internal rank among a group of less than a thousand members is in the big picture, and to him, it is not worth the lives of two of his friends from home, and that of a woman his friend plainly cares about.
Regardless of what their chances were, however, he assumed not only that they would need to be saved, but that they would want to be saved and that they should be saved.
Well if you stipulate the first, the other two naturally follow... Mat not being a prideful idiot, he cannot see how one might need to be saved and not want to be. It's Mat's attitude that frustrates me the most. It's his open arrogance. It's the way he marched into that room and demanded control of the situation, kicking Egwene out of her chair,
He thought she'd get in trouble for sitting in it! It was not arrogance, it was the same attitude as someone who walked in on their brother playing with Dad's stuff and snatched out of his hand, saying "Put that back before he catches us!"refusing to let anyone else speak and in doing so making incorrect judgments based only on his assumptions when he could get the information very easily
They used the Power on him. In the first place, that's bullying to do to someone who can't do it back. If he had tried to grab them to stop them from touching him Egwene would have called him a bully (as she did to Rand in tGH when he pushed her off after she tackled him), but how is that any different? At least a woman can physically resist a man. Egwene herself notes in the next book that a woman using the Power on a non-channeling man is worse than a man using his superior strength on a woman. Given that before he did anything other than catch her posing as Amyrlin in a town full of Aes Sedai, she used the Power on him, he has every right to be mad at them. It would be one thing for him to have said something along the lines of "I don't think you have much of a chance, Rand wants Elayne back in Caemlyn, and I think you should really consider coming with me" (though it wouldn't be in Mat's character to do so) and another thing to do what he did, marching in there and refusing to engage in a discussion
I believe his exact words on that topic were "If you wanted to talk, you shouldn't have tried to use the Power on me." And that was what she did. Egwene did not try to offer a reasonable discussion - she wanted the discussion on HER terms and she wanted him in awe of her and kowtowing to the Amyrlin Seat. She is expecting a man who has never shown anything other detestation for Aes Sedai to be impressed by her trapping of status (no sweat, her laughable claim to the Amyrlin Seat), while he never gives any sign or even expects that they should be impressed by his well-earned and fairly-won generalship! Egwene was picked because she was viewed as a good figurehead - Mat was picked because he won battles against qualitative and quantatively superior forces. Which one should be expecting deference from the other, if there was any justice in the world? But that is the difference between Egwene and everyone else. Everyone else has to prove they deserve any status or respect they get, first. Egwene is handed things and expects all the respect to come with them. Amyrlin Seat ranks well below the Dragon Reborn in terms of importance and necessity to the world, which means a mere Accepted whom the Dragon knows to be a poser and posturer should not even be able to show her face in his company, but when did Egwene ever behave more deferentially towards Rand than Mat did towards a woman with a farcical claim to leadership of a group he distrusts? An Accepted barging in on the Dragon Reborn is a far greater show of arrogance than an accomplished general (who is also a personal representative of the Dragon Reborn - a fact which Sheriam, among others, assumes from the beginning) barging in on a fake Amyrlin. where he would've gained some information that might have changed his perspective. Yes, the Wondergirls are probably very hard to deal with, but sinking to their level isn't helping matters.
What information? He recognized the situation accurately from the beginning and Egwene herself admits it in her PoV. Not on that subject - on things like Egwene being the Amyrlin. Or that they would get in trouble, for that matter. He said they'd all end up with their heads cut off - being a novice is pretty far from that.
I'm sorry, you're right. He SHOULD have counted on Elaida being extremely merciful when she got her hands on Egwene! 
As for his knowing she's the "Amyrlin" the fact that he didn't think it could be her says more good about him than the other way around. Look at how he describes the Amyrlin of Salidar before he knows her identity "the poor fool...She can't be very bright or she'd never have [taken] the job. Amyrlin for a bloody village..." It speaks rather well of Mat's opinion of Egwene that he did not think her stupid enough to accept the Amyrlin Seat for this travesty.He was right that Egwene would end up in trouble; he was wrong about the degree to which she would be in trouble. And he may be wrong about all of them needing to be saved. The Wondergirls are not completely incompetent, and even when they do need help in recent books, they've often done a lot to help themselves, too, that made this possible (such as Elayne with the Black Ajah in Camelyn, as you've been arguing in another thread).
"Any woman who falsely claims the Amyrlin Seat must be stilled." Quote from Tower Law, and repeatedly claimed to be a fate worse than death for a female channeler. How could Mat be wrong when the consequences of Egwene failing are thus? This is hardly some draconian invention of the Tower either - historically the punishment for rebellion IS death and always has been. Mat can see that they are up to their necks in a rebellion against the most powerful government in the world of WoT, with one of them claiming the title of the most powerful ruler in the world and the other two claiming a status for which the penalties for pretending are legendarily harsh. Setelle Anan says similar things to Nynaeve and Elayne and she is only making a deduction based on outdated information, while Mat KNOWS they are not what they pretend. He KNOWS they have not been to the Tower, been tested for the shawl or sworn the Three Oaths. But mostly, it was not him thinking they'd get in trouble that frustrated me - it was the manner in which he behaved and the assumptions he made without bothering to get easily available information.
He came to get them out of trouble in which they appeared hell-bent on exacerbating (wearing non-Accepted garb, playing at being Amyrlin), and they try to use the Power on him. If Egwene came at Rand or Mat, demanding to know what he was up to, and he grabbed her by the shoulders to hold her still, she would have been even more annoyed. Short of physically doing violence to her, it is never socially acceptable for a man to grab a woman to hold her still, so why is it acceptable for Egwene to grab a man who can't channel with the Power? She is never even contrite, merely puzzled that it did not work.It's another case of Mat jumping to conclusions with insufficient information that could be readily obtained or even dismissed with a bit of thought.
Then why don't you detail the thought process and information Mat should have used and considered to 'dismiss'? How could he have readily obtained the information that Aviendha was going to offer Elayne the chance to stab her in order to meet an obligation she had incurred to Elayne by sleeping with Rand? She certainly would not have told him! Rand knew her better than any other wetlander at that point, and HE had no clue what she intended or he would never have let her go. Exactly which of those reticent, half-spoken conversations betweeen Rand and various Aiel in LoC gives you the impression that ANY Aiel would blurt out the intricacies of her ethical dilema to any wetlander who had no business in the matter?It could be that the knife-sharpening and mentioning Elayne were completely unrelated.
Sure, if you are arguing philosophically. Any decent prosecutor could establish motive and intent from her actions in his sleep! These are human beings in an immediate situation - they don't objectively ponder this stuff out of context and expecting them to is ludicrous.It could be that she wanted to do something else that Mat had no idea about precisely because he doesn't have any understanding of Aiel customs (and it was). But he assumed that she wanted to kill Elayne, and thought of it as another bothersome thing he'd have to deal with when saving the girls.
He's in command of an army, she's a retired soldier who owns no weapon greater than a knife. It IS just a bothersome thing, and no big deal. Stopping her from killing Elayne WON'T be a problem for him as long as he doesn't leave them alone. You're WORSE than Egwene - she merely wants respect to make herself feel good. You, for no reason whatsoever, expect Mat to cower and grovel because women whose foibles he has known for years are named as Aes Sedai or Amyrlin Seat, and you want him to fear the tremendous might of Aveindha the Amazon champion! Those titles mean nothing to him, and are NOT reasons for him to show respect, and his behavior was no more unduly familiar or overstepping his bounds than Egwene's is to the Dragon Reborn. Aviendha is only a threat to Mat in the sense that because she is more violent and comes from a more vicious and bloodthirsty culture, she might attack him when his guard is down because he does not perceive a reason for bloodshed. In any sort of fight where he has fair warning and she does not have a bow, she has a VERY slim chance of harming him.
This is hardly something Mat alone does - lots of characters do it.
That's because PEOPLE do it! Everyone operates on the information they know or believe, and no one has any way of knowing that they are missing pieces or do not have the whole picture, mostly because NO ONE EVER has the whole picture! If people were to abjure this type of behavior for good, no one would get anything done! That is why Pedron Niall's final rule of information & action - Never wait to know everything - seemingly contradicts the others, which are all about the importance of learning as much as you can. And it's equally wrong and annoying when they do it. But as I don't like Mat, and many others do, I feel the need to mention that Mat can be just as annoying as the Wondergirls or whoever else in the series does this sort of thing.
That's an interesting interpretation; I hadn't thought about that, but it makes a lot of sense considering her character and recent developments to it. So it would have nothing to do with Olver's reaction to her - or what effect would that have on her, as she deals with this new side of herself?
Nah. She even refutes this notion, and while it might be a case where she "doth protest too much" it doesn't feel that way. It could be that his hostility to her brought him to her attention and sparked those feelings, but I think she is telling the truth and is not in denial when she disclaims any responsibility for him. Okay, thanks... So there really is no clear answer on how that was resolved, other than it was resolved in some way that was not solely based on Sulin winning. Thanks!
Eww. And Egwene didn't feel so embarrassed she couldn't see him again? Huh.
Well, she was embarassed, but she DID know it was a dream, and it IS sex, so perhaps she wanted more. I doubt his dream included him being rough or clumsy or inept in THAT area - notice how despite his professions of inadequacy and unworthiness, he was still competant to easily defeat Rand in a swordfight. Unless it's a nightmare, men don't dream about being sexually awkward or unsatisfying.Yes, I'd be mad. Elayne did have every right to be mad. It's the fact that she even found it appealing that bothered me, unless fights over men do actually become physical in Andoran culture or something. I still feel it was a very strong reaction considering her culture and the fact that she knew she'd be sharing Rand (and she's taken steps to accepting that at this point, too).
Yes, those are THOUGHTS. Entirely different from actual feelings or having to go through with those thoughts. Aviendha comes from a bigamistic culture, Min has her viewings which she is always telling anyone who will listen that "when I know, I KNOW," Aviendha saw about the sister-wives months ago in Rhuidean, Min has known about having to share Rand for almost two years and presumably the Wise Ones have briefed both women on each other, but look at how they act towards one another when they finally meet. Elayne has the least reason and no direct personal information motivating her to acquiesce to the whole sharing issue, but she is far and away the best at it and the one who does the most to make it work. As is implied by their brief interaction in WH (and was apparent before they met) Min and Aviendha are a lot more alike in nature than either is with Elayne, but she still manages to get along better than they do.Fair enough. 
Interesting example there.
I respect my mother too much to BS or coddle her. Interesting example there.But wouldn't they have had to be somewhat desensitized even to avoid seeing the effects at all? It's right in front of their eyes! Those CGI people can view a movie that way because they have experience; it's something they've done before, and they're used to it. Is it just a matter of seeing the people as rocks for the Asha'man? I still find it difficult to believe that none of them faltered in the attack because they DID see what was going on
Herd mentality. A large part of how men find the courage to charge into certain death is that their buddies are doing it to. Throughout World War One, men huddled in trenches, walking bent over to avoid getting their heads shot off, but when they were ordered, they went over the top and charged across open, rough ground with no shelter, barbed wire obstructions and machine guns blasting away at them. To observers, they seemed possessed of inhuman courage, but most of them did it because everyone else was doing it too, and they did not want to look bad. At Dumai's Wells, anyone who stopped or freaked out or showed signs of being disturbed would look like a pussy, and probably expect constant taunting and hazing over it until he redeemed himself with some heroic action, and even if he survived that action, the taunting and hazing would still continue, only dialled down to teasing and ribbing. This is how men act in groups like this. It is a behavior as old as men have been gathering in groups to do dangerous or unpleasant jobs. There are valid psychological reasons for it too. If a guy is acting hesitant, maybe the time he hesitates for real will be when it is your butt on the line and his squeamishness or faltering will get you killed. and the younger ones in particular would have seen much less carnage than, say, Perrin (who did not react well to seeing the effects at all). Unless the weaves actually blocked the Shaido from view or something.
As I said, Perrin wasn't doing it, so he had perspective to consider it objectively and be apalled. As for their youth and innocence, you are rather naive if you think atrocities are mostly committed by hardened and calloused brutes. In fact a good many atrocities are conducted by brand new troops in their first action, driven by bloodlust or fear or a combination of the two. Throw in thousands of Aiel (the boogeymen of the wetlands) charging at them brandishing weapons (not to mention masked faces - people are blindfolded or hooded for their executions, not to spare them the sight of the apparatus or men who will kill them, but to dehumanize them & make it easier for the executioners to do their job & on the spectators), with large doses of group-action & peer-approval, baked by what Mazrim Taim calls "harsh discipline" and I would have MORE surprised by anyone refusing or wavering.