Except that perspective is only from hindsight. Now that we know the voices are a symptom of a specific mental illness, we can identify this behavior as insane. Before that we were willing to accept it as just another fantasy thing, like the One Power or the Horn of Valere, or ta'veren. Think of how annoyed people were at Tuon for thinking the last was superstition on the part of wetlanders.
I disagree, somewhat - I can see why people would have believed that, but I remain surprised that more people didn't pick up on it at an earlier stage. I know that once I read the suggestion that Rand was actually mad (I'm not one for thinking up theories as I read), it immediately made sense... though generalizing to everyone's a bad idea. But I don't think everyone should have immediately concluded that he's mad, since you're right - at the time, it could very well be interpreted as a fantasy thing. His behaviour as seen from the perspective of others, or when Rand sees it from the perspective of others (e.g. that he's been doing what LTT wanted or talking to LTT out loud) says otherwise, to me, and that's why I thought it would have been a more popular theory years ago.
What did Rand do that was so egotistical in this book of which Egwene would have ANY knowledge? He might have been a bit over-confident, but he had reasons, as implied in Min & Elayne's conversation. From his perspective, we see he is not arrogant or egotistical at all. Egwene's perception is a reluctance to acknowledge his genuinely elevated status and achievements. Recall too, this book features Rand at the pinacle of his worldly power, before the Shadow's recent influence spread and he had not run into the setbacks of later books. If there is any point when Rand seems justified in being cocky or self-assured, it is here.
Maybe not that Egwene would know - I've already forgotten what encounters she did witness with Rand. But whether or not Rand is justified in behaving as he does (and when it comes to many of the nobles, he is), he comes across as being extremely arrogant. And no one likes that.
...and I have completely forgotten my point after just a few days. All I can remember is that I wondered how differently some things might have gone had Rand been less arrogant. Not things like meeting with the Aes Sedai, but, say, talking to Taim. And if he's justified in every scene of the book that he's had that attitude in, then that's great, I'd like that. Yet he's still arrogant - something I never believed whenever Egwene said it until this book.
Except she was not doing anything other than free-loading, breaking her promises, meddling in affairs that were not her concern, blinding herself to what was going on around her, and assuming an importance and status beyond her true station.
Better than her character later in the books. I couldn't understand how she went from being like Aiel to an Aes Sedai politician so quickly.
First of all, he was right about their chances, and his assessment of their situation was accurate. No one gives the rebels any real chance, and the only reason they can possibly succeed is through some unforeseeable circumstance pulling Egwene's fat out of the fire.
Which didn't happen until much later. What could Mat do now to save her, assuming he was even around? And Egwene seems to be doing a decent job of saving herself this time around (well, again - she did something that helped in the Stone of Tear); she's making the best of a bad situation. I understand this is hindsight, but if he had carried her away, I can't see how there would be any hope for reuniting the Tower under someone who wasn't as corrupted as Elaida.
Regardless of what their chances were, however, he assumed not only that they would need to be saved, but that they would want to be saved and that they should be saved. It's Mat's attitude that frustrates me the most. It's his open arrogance. It's the way he marched into that room and demanded control of the situation, kicking Egwene out of her chair, refusing to let anyone else speak and in doing so making incorrect judgments based only on his assumptions when he could get the information very easily! It would be one thing for him to have said something along the lines of "I don't think you have much of a chance, Rand wants Elayne back in Caemlyn, and I think you should really consider coming with me" (though it wouldn't be in Mat's character to do so) and another thing to do what he did, marching in there and refusing to engage in a discussion - where he would've gained some information that might have changed his perspective. Yes, the Wondergirls are probably very hard to deal with, but sinking to their level isn't helping matters.
Mat's hardly the only character to do this, but he's the most beloved of all the characters who have.
He never apologized or changed his mind because he was NEVER "proven otherwise!" With Egwene a captive in novice white, exactly HOW would you contend Mat has been proven wrong?
Not on that subject - on things like Egwene being the Amyrlin. Or that they would get in trouble, for that matter. He said they'd all end up with their heads cut off - being a novice is pretty far from that.
He was right that Egwene would end up in trouble; he was wrong about the degree to which she would be in trouble. And he may be wrong about all of them needing to be saved. The Wondergirls are not completely incompetent, and even when they do need help in recent books, they've often done a lot to help themselves, too, that made this possible (such as Elayne with the Black Ajah in Camelyn, as you've been arguing in another thread).
But mostly, it was not him thinking they'd get in trouble that frustrated me - it was the manner in which he behaved and the assumptions he made without bothering to get easily available information.
As far as the Aviendha thing, he had good reason considering everything he had seen since. Why don't you explain what Mat sees that should have made him realize Aviendha was planning on offering Elayne a chance to kill her, rather than the other way around? Elayne didn't give him any credibility at all, but Aviendha's behavior in the few minutes they were together was enough to make her wonder if this guy she had no respect or regard for COULD be right. And what was so bad about his behavior on this issue? He didn't try to interfere with Aviendha and Elayne or keep them apart or restrain Aviendha. He simply doubted that a woman who reiterated her desire to see Elayne while sharpening her knife for days had peaceful intentions in mind. Considering how almost everyone on this site or its predecessor who bothers to mention the topic claims not to understand the nature of Aviendha's toh to Elayne and Rand, how could Mat, with a fraction of our knowledge be expected to intuit it accurately?
It's another case of Mat jumping to conclusions with insufficient information that could be readily obtained or even dismissed with a bit of thought. It could be that the knife-sharpening and mentioning Elayne were completely unrelated. It could be that she wanted to do something else that Mat had no idea about precisely because he doesn't have any understanding of Aiel customs (and it was). But he assumed that she wanted to kill Elayne, and thought of it as another bothersome thing he'd have to deal with when saving the girls.
This is hardly something Mat alone does - lots of characters do it. And it's equally wrong and annoying when they do it. But as I don't like Mat, and many others do, I feel the need to mention that Mat can be just as annoying as the Wondergirls or whoever else in the series does this sort of thing.
I have. The worst thing is not what she does in this book, but how she refuses to learn from these experiences! While captives of the sisters, Min's presence made Rand's captivity worse. No one can deny this, or make any sort of claim that she did any good by coming along. She was spectacularly ineffective at protecting him from Fain (and when Fain stabbed him, she pushed away the Aes Sedai who was trying to Heal him! ), she herself listed all his accomplishments after he left her in the mountain camp in tDR, and he does it again in aCoS/tPoD, killing Sammael, conquering Illian, and thwarting the Seanchan expansion. Yet she still persists on inveigling herself along on his expeditions in the future, despite knowing her incapacity and having dramatic proof of how Rand reacts to her being in danger. She claims to know him better than he knows himself, but never thinks about what exactly her going along to behave disgracefully and inflate her own self-image by proving to the world that she is not impressed by the Dragon Reborn, and that no matter how powerful or important Rand might be, he is just a smelly hick to her.
Seriously, what business did she have at the meeting with "Tuon"? He did NOT need to abide by their terms, and could have brought another Asha'man in disguise as a woman, or a sister with her ability concealed (as Nynaeve knows how to do), or if he felt he MUST abide by the Seanchan restrictions, he has nobles who would lend status to his party or who could provide political advice, he could have asked for a Sea Folk representative to hash out their issues with the Seanchan, or he could have taken a Maiden to satisfy the debt he sees himself as owing them. Any one of these choices would have been a far more useful and prudent choice than Min, who would have been far more useful back with the rescue-response force, since even if Semirhage had managed her snatch-and-run, Min could have led the rescue force right to his location! This has been a factor in the last two times he has been held captive, with Alanna bringing the rebel sisters and Two Rivers men to Dumai's Wells, and Cadsuane using Min to keep track of Rand in Far Madding, so it is not like this is a revolutionary notion that no one could be expected to think of! Every person there earned the right to accompany Rand by their strength in the Power, their loyal service and their intense training to hone the abilities that made them useful. Min earned her spot on her back.
Seriously, what business did she have at the meeting with "Tuon"? He did NOT need to abide by their terms, and could have brought another Asha'man in disguise as a woman, or a sister with her ability concealed (as Nynaeve knows how to do), or if he felt he MUST abide by the Seanchan restrictions, he has nobles who would lend status to his party or who could provide political advice, he could have asked for a Sea Folk representative to hash out their issues with the Seanchan, or he could have taken a Maiden to satisfy the debt he sees himself as owing them. Any one of these choices would have been a far more useful and prudent choice than Min, who would have been far more useful back with the rescue-response force, since even if Semirhage had managed her snatch-and-run, Min could have led the rescue force right to his location! This has been a factor in the last two times he has been held captive, with Alanna bringing the rebel sisters and Two Rivers men to Dumai's Wells, and Cadsuane using Min to keep track of Rand in Far Madding, so it is not like this is a revolutionary notion that no one could be expected to think of! Every person there earned the right to accompany Rand by their strength in the Power, their loyal service and their intense training to hone the abilities that made them useful. Min earned her spot on her back.
*applauds*
If she tells him, that undermines anything he does from then on. It might have been unpleasant for a while, but Perrin figuring it out the hard way has made them happier in the end.
Fair enough. Annoying to readers, but necessary to the characters - as a defender of later books I understand this point.
She's starting to feel all maternal and she doesn't typically approach things from a woman's point of view. She and Birgitte are both atypical of the female role in their culture (Aviendha apparently took the rejection of men rather far even for a Maiden, especially one who turns out to be straight). Dramatically-speaking, when such women DO evince typically feminine traits, they tend to do so in an extreme manner, as if to overcompensate for their other lacks. In WoT, where a strong theme involves the concept that fighting the inevitable only makes it hit you that much harder when you lose the fight, Aviendha's over-interest in Olver (he is the only kid around or in a position to be of interest) is akin to her experiences being completely out of her depth in dealing with Rand & their relationship. She's over-reacting because this is all new to her, when most women her age have been thinking about and embracing this aspect of their natures for years.
That's an interesting interpretation; I hadn't thought about that, but it makes a lot of sense considering her character and recent developments to it. So it would have nothing to do with Olver's reaction to her - or what effect would that have on her, as she deals with this new side of herself?
Sulin WAS in charge, before she undertook her penance to meet her toh to the gai'shain, which she incurred using Maiden handtalk when she summoned the Aiel to accompany Rand to Shadar Logoth with the Ogier (this counts as reminding them that they were Maidens before putting on the white). Nandera took over leadership of the Maidens while Sulin was out of the game, and the expedition to Dumai's Wells was Sulin's first time back in action since ending her toh-meeting (because of the extreme of shame she felt acting servile to a bunch of wetlanders including a tree-killer at Dobraine & Perrin's meeting). As a result, the issue of who is now in charge was bound to come up. Both of them were trying to lead, which is what they were fighting over when they actually did fight. Since letting someone lead just because she won a fistfight is idiotic even for Aiel, there was probably more to it than that - even though Sulin won the fight, Nandera either did not give up, or else held her own sufficiently that she did not have to submit to Sulin.
Okay, thanks... So there really is no clear answer on how that was resolved, other than it was resolved in some way that was not solely based on Sulin winning. Thanks!
Yes.
Eww. And Egwene didn't feel so embarrassed she couldn't see him again? Huh.
She was PO'ed and thought of the knife because Aviendha had drawn her attention to it. Are you saying you would NOT be mad if one of your friends had sex with the person you are interested in? Especially if they A. knew of your interest beforehand and B. beat you to the punch? The fact that she took pains to avoid even the temptation of holding the knife shows that she did not, in fact, WANT to stab anyone. It was Aviendha's idea, and for a moment, she thought it appealing.
Yes, I'd be mad. Elayne did have every right to be mad. It's the fact that she even found it appealing that bothered me, unless fights over men do actually become physical in Andoran culture or something. I still feel it was a very strong reaction considering her culture and the fact that she knew she'd be sharing Rand (and she's taken steps to accepting that at this point, too).
Elayne only thinks that when Birgitte is being exasperating. It's probably one of those kidding on the square things everyone jokes about (like I tell my mother whenever she shows signs of incapacity that she's one step closer to being left on an ice floe like the Eskimos).
Fair enough.
Interesting example there. That's fairly typical. They're concentrating on their weaves and don't see the effects as much as thinking about how they are making it happen. It's sort of the inverse of when you watch a movie with great special effects and are impressed, while the CGI people probably watch it and guess what programs or techniques were used to digitalize the explosions.
But wouldn't they have had to be somewhat desensitized even to avoid seeing the effects at all? It's right in front of their eyes! Those CGI people can view a movie that way because they have experience; it's something they've done before, and they're used to it. Is it just a matter of seeing the people as rocks for the Asha'man? I still find it difficult to believe that none of them faltered in the attack because they DID see what was going on - and the younger ones in particular would have seen much less carnage than, say, Perrin (who did not react well to seeing the effects at all). Unless the weaves actually blocked the Shaido from view or something.
Thoughts on LoC
- 07/10/2009 07:05:30 AM
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Re: Thoughts on LoC
- 07/10/2009 06:35:46 PM
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Re: Thoughts on LoC
- 07/10/2009 08:44:29 PM
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Read the passage when Rand asks Mat to go to Salidar again.
- 07/10/2009 10:02:31 PM
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