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Re: Thoughts on LoC Cannoli Send a noteboard - 07/10/2009 06:35:46 PM
I've just finished LoC in my pre-TGS re-read (yes, I am aware there are twenty days before the book's release), after years of skipping over it thanks to my copy falling apart and not being bothered to buy a new one. It really surprised me how much my perception of things changed after actually reading the book again (most of my knowledge of recent books has been from discussions on them). And since there seem to be a lot of "personal" threads here now, if I may present some thoughts and ask a question or two...

-Rand seems pretty mad in this book, what with all the talking to LTT (and doing it aloud at times, too!). Maybe this is just hindsight, but I'm surprised that people (myself included, for a long time) believed he was still sane for so long... and some still do. It was very interesting to see him from different perspectives here.
Except that perspective is only from hindsight. Now that we know the voices are a symptom of a specific mental illness, we can identify this behavior as insane. Before that we were willing to accept it as just another fantasy thing, like the One Power or the Horn of Valere, or ta'veren. Think of how annoyed people were at Tuon for thinking the last was superstition on the part of wetlanders.

-And again, tying into the previous point, Egwene really has a point when she thought Rand's ego was growing too large (multiple times). I always thought it was just one of those silly things they think about people up until now. Isn't that something of what Cadsuane's doing when she's trying to teach Rand manners?
What did Rand do that was so egotistical in this book of which Egwene would have ANY knowledge? He might have been a bit over-confident, but he had reasons, as implied in Min & Elayne's conversation. From his perspective, we see he is not arrogant or egotistical at all. Egwene's perception is a reluctance to acknowledge his genuinely elevated status and achievements. Recall too, this book features Rand at the pinacle of his worldly power, before the Shadow's recent influence spread and he had not run into the setbacks of later books. If there is any point when Rand seems justified in being cocky or self-assured, it is here.

-Egwene is awesome in this book. Her scenes with the Aiel must be some of my favourite in the series. After reading the released chapters of TGS, though... I realise I like her character as Amyrlin much less than I do the Aiel-Egwene. I wish she'd maintain more aspects of her training in future arcs (besides her acceptance of pain and all that - after realising this, I find I can look back at those scenes and feel happy that she HASN'T forgotten about all of that) and speak to the Aiel more. I nearly cried when she was summoned since I didn't want those chapters to end!
Except she was not doing anything other than free-loading, breaking her promises, meddling in affairs that were not her concern, blinding herself to what was going on around her, and assuming an importance and status beyond her true station.

-Same goes for Min and Gawyn. Not just because their brains are the size of chickens', but their interactions just make me think it'd be so much better than the romances that pop out of nowhere for both of them.
I would agree, just because of the chicken issue...

-...Oh yeah, I actually began to dislike Mat thanks to a certain scene in Salidar. His arrogance and ignorance were astounding: thinking the girls would need rescuing (and while they have in the past, it's just as wrong of him to think of them as being so inferior as it is of the girls to think of men that way), and would be grateful for it; ignoring their protests and status because he didn't believe it could be possible, and then somehow never really apologizing or changing his mind when proven otherwise. People blame other characters (mostly the Wondergirls) for this sort of thing all the time, yet at least when they realise they've done something like that they become ashamed (and act even worse to cover it up, but they are aware of it). Mat never seems to even realise that he's WRONG (he still thinks Aviendha wants to kill Elayne on the way to Ebou Dar?!)! That was horrible behaviour on his part.
First of all, he was right about their chances, and his assessment of their situation was accurate. No one gives the rebels any real chance, and the only reason they can possibly succeed is through some unforeseeable circumstance pulling Egwene's fat out of the fire. He never apologized or changed his mind because he was NEVER "proven otherwise!" With Egwene a captive in novice white, exactly HOW would you contend Mat has been proven wrong? As far as the Aviendha thing, he had good reason considering everything he had seen since. Why don't you explain what Mat sees that should have made him realize Aviendha was planning on offering Elayne a chance to kill her, rather than the other way around? Elayne didn't give him any credibility at all, but Aviendha's behavior in the few minutes they were together was enough to make her wonder if this guy she had no respect or regard for COULD be right. And what was so bad about his behavior on this issue? He didn't try to interfere with Aviendha and Elayne or keep them apart or restrain Aviendha. He simply doubted that a woman who reiterated her desire to see Elayne while sharpening her knife for days had peaceful intentions in mind. Considering how almost everyone on this site or its predecessor who bothers to mention the topic claims not to understand the nature of Aviendha's toh to Elayne and Rand, how could Mat, with a fraction of our knowledge be expected to intuit it accurately?

-Min is a worthless, annoying... I'm not sure if I can use those words here. I'm surprised that she can act even more immaturely than women ten years younger than she is (like Faile, for example). Does she really have no life except for Rand? And for all that the other girls get embarrassed over being "forward", how many have plunked themselves down on their man's lap... and continued to do this while he has GUESTS? I'm finding it hard to describe her behaviour through my disbelief. Maybe I've skimmed through one too many of Cannoli's Egwene-hate posts, but I find myself starting to blame her for an awful lot of things. Would Dumai's Wells have happened if she hadn't been communicating with Rand about the Aes Sedai (thirteen in Caemlyn scared him off, even though they apparently weren't intending to harm him in the same way - she caused her vision to be fulfilled!), about her vision that Aes Sedai would hurt him, or if she hadn't gone out walking in the TAS camp and caused him to become enraged and hurt them BOTH - and Erian's Warders, at that... And the Tower coup... Someone write essays on this woman, please. :P
I have. The worst thing is not what she does in this book, but how she refuses to learn from these experiences! While captives of the sisters, Min's presence made Rand's captivity worse. No one can deny this, or make any sort of claim that she did any good by coming along. She was spectacularly ineffective at protecting him from Fain (and when Fain stabbed him, she pushed away the Aes Sedai who was trying to Heal him! ), she herself listed all his accomplishments after he left her in the mountain camp in tDR, and he does it again in aCoS/tPoD, killing Sammael, conquering Illian, and thwarting the Seanchan expansion. Yet she still persists on inveigling herself along on his expeditions in the future, despite knowing her incapacity and having dramatic proof of how Rand reacts to her being in danger. She claims to know him better than he knows himself, but never thinks about what exactly her going along to behave disgracefully and inflate her own self-image by proving to the world that she is not impressed by the Dragon Reborn, and that no matter how powerful or important Rand might be, he is just a smelly hick to her.

Seriously, what business did she have at the meeting with "Tuon"? He did NOT need to abide by their terms, and could have brought another Asha'man in disguise as a woman, or a sister with her ability concealed (as Nynaeve knows how to do), or if he felt he MUST abide by the Seanchan restrictions, he has nobles who would lend status to his party or who could provide political advice, he could have asked for a Sea Folk representative to hash out their issues with the Seanchan, or he could have taken a Maiden to satisfy the debt he sees himself as owing them. Any one of these choices would have been a far more useful and prudent choice than Min, who would have been far more useful back with the rescue-response force, since even if Semirhage had managed her snatch-and-run, Min could have led the rescue force right to his location! This has been a factor in the last two times he has been held captive, with Alanna bringing the rebel sisters and Two Rivers men to Dumai's Wells, and Cadsuane using Min to keep track of Rand in Far Madding, so it is not like this is a revolutionary notion that no one could be expected to think of! Every person there earned the right to accompany Rand by their strength in the Power, their loyal service and their intense training to hone the abilities that made them useful. Min earned her spot on her back.

-Faile had books of being decent until she decided not to tell Perrin what was really upsetting her. Wonderful.
If she tells him, that undermines anything he does from then on. It might have been unpleasant for a while, but Perrin figuring it out the hard way has made them happier in the end.

-Why does Aviendha feel so wary around Olver? Is it just because he doesn't like her (/Aiel)?
She's starting to feel all maternal and she doesn't typically approach things from a woman's point of view. She and Birgitte are both atypical of the female role in their culture (Aviendha apparently took the rejection of men rather far even for a Maiden, especially one who turns out to be straight). Dramatically-speaking, when such women DO evince typically feminine traits, they tend to do so in an extreme manner, as if to overcompensate for their other lacks. In WoT, where a strong theme involves the concept that fighting the inevitable only makes it hit you that much harder when you lose the fight, Aviendha's over-interest in Olver (he is the only kid around or in a position to be of interest) is akin to her experiences being completely out of her depth in dealing with Rand & their relationship. She's over-reacting because this is all new to her, when most women her age have been thinking about and embracing this aspect of their natures for years.

-What was with the Sulin-Nandera confrontation just before Dumai's Wells? I'm probably missing the obvious here, but I don't understand what it was really about, or what it resolved... Same goes for the Amys-Sorilea conversation. I've never seen any discussions/questions about it.
Sulin WAS in charge, before she undertook her penance to meet her toh to the gai'shain, which she incurred using Maiden handtalk when she summoned the Aiel to accompany Rand to Shadar Logoth with the Ogier (this counts as reminding them that they were Maidens before putting on the white). Nandera took over leadership of the Maidens while Sulin was out of the game, and the expedition to Dumai's Wells was Sulin's first time back in action since ending her toh-meeting (because of the extreme of shame she felt acting servile to a bunch of wetlanders including a tree-killer at Dobraine & Perrin's meeting). As a result, the issue of who is now in charge was bound to come up. Both of them were trying to lead, which is what they were fighting over when they actually did fight. Since letting someone lead just because she won a fistfight is idiotic even for Aiel, there was probably more to it than that - even though Sulin won the fight, Nandera either did not give up, or else held her own sufficiently that she did not have to submit to Sulin.

-Another stupid question: In Gawyn's dream, did they ACTUALLY get... that far?
Yes.

-Final thought: Elayne and Min both annoyed me immensely when it came to the topic of Rand and the other women. Elayne actually wanted to use the knife on Aviendha! Her possessiveness is insane - I can understand being dissatisfied with other women in his life, but not only are these her friends, she goes beyond that and actually wants to do violence!
She was PO'ed and thought of the knife because Aviendha had drawn her attention to it. Are you saying you would NOT be mad if one of your friends had sex with the person you are interested in? Especially if they A. knew of your interest beforehand and B. beat you to the punch? The fact that she took pains to avoid even the temptation of holding the knife shows that she did not, in fact, WANT to stab anyone. It was Aviendha's idea, and for a moment, she thought it appealing.

She also thought something about ensuring Rand would obey her when she bonded him (and as her Warder alone, I might add - I'm happy that I can look ahead and see how she changed her mind), which struck me as ridiculous... as much as I like and defend the Wondergirls, they do occasionally say or think some crazy things. Min didn't react that badly, but she still made me roll my eyes. She's known from the beginning that other women will love him, and she still gets jealous and annoyed when he talks about them? But then, anything Min thinks, says or does with regards to Rand is annoying...
Elayne only thinks that when Birgitte is being exasperating. It's probably one of those kidding on the square things everyone jokes about (like I tell my mother whenever she shows signs of incapacity that she's one step closer to being left on an ice floe like the Eskimos).

-Finally, one part of Dumai's Wells really had an effect on me. It was almost heartbreaking to see the Asha'man destroy the Shaido so completely, in such a brutal manner, even as some of the heroes are unable to view the scene without becoming sick. They've become desensitized in such a short period of time; what happened in their training to do this - how did it happen? Just from making rocks explode?
That's fairly typical. They're concentrating on their weaves and don't see the effects as much as thinking about how they are making it happen. It's sort of the inverse of when you watch a movie with great special effects and are impressed, while the CGI people probably watch it and guess what programs or techniques were used to digitalize the explosions.

I apologize for the extremely long and rambling post of unrelated thoughts and the Min-hate. :P Anyone disagree? I love seeing the variety of informed opinions expressed on wotmania and now RAFO!
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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