You can't assume that people in other cultures have the same customs and systems in place as you do. To do so is both arrogant and also rather rude.
I don't know whether or not you read my first post, but judging from your statement I would have to chance that you did not. With all due respect, I feel as though you have jumped headlong into the conclusion that I am somehow stating that the judicial system of Tar Valon is exactly the same as the judicial system of the United States (in fact, they are comparable, but that is not the point). Perhaps my original quote will help to shed some light on the situation and clear up any misunderstandings you might have had.
This is what I’ve got:
1. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
One can only assume that, given the degree of sophistication that exists between the Aes Sedai, this axiom holds in Tar Valon, if not in a few other countries. If you follow that axiom to its logical conclusion, you can determine that anything you do to a darkfriend who has not been tried and found guilty of affiliating with the shadow, you are in fact doing to an innocent person.
I will concede that the treatment of darkfriend prisoners who are within the custody of the Aes Sedai has not been entirely indicative of that point – certainly I don’t suggest that Amico, Joiya and Ispan were treated as if they were innocent. Nevertheless, I cannot site any instance of torture. Ispan was bound hand and foot, force-fed sedatives, and lugged about with a leather sack over her head, but none of these things equate to the severity of stilling.
The White Tower has very strict regulations regarding the interrogation of any prisoner, as we see here:
"I fear that is proscribed, even were she not an initiate of the Tower." Adeleas said. "We are forbidden to shed blood in questioning, or to allow others to do so in our name."
and here...
That law forbade not only shedding blood, but breaking bones and a number of other things that any Whitecloak Questioner would be more than ready to do. Before any session began, Healing had to be given, and if the questioning started before sunrise, it had to end before sundown; if after sunset, then before sunrise. The law was even more restrictive when it came to initiates of the Tower, the sisters and Accepted and novices, banning the use of saidar in questioning, punishment or penance. Oh, a sister might flick a novice's ear with the Power if she was exasperated, or even give her a swat on the bottom, but not very much more.
[Robert Jordan, The Path of Daggers, page 109]
1. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
One can only assume that, given the degree of sophistication that exists between the Aes Sedai, this axiom holds in Tar Valon, if not in a few other countries. If you follow that axiom to its logical conclusion, you can determine that anything you do to a darkfriend who has not been tried and found guilty of affiliating with the shadow, you are in fact doing to an innocent person.
I will concede that the treatment of darkfriend prisoners who are within the custody of the Aes Sedai has not been entirely indicative of that point – certainly I don’t suggest that Amico, Joiya and Ispan were treated as if they were innocent. Nevertheless, I cannot site any instance of torture. Ispan was bound hand and foot, force-fed sedatives, and lugged about with a leather sack over her head, but none of these things equate to the severity of stilling.
The White Tower has very strict regulations regarding the interrogation of any prisoner, as we see here:
"I fear that is proscribed, even were she not an initiate of the Tower." Adeleas said. "We are forbidden to shed blood in questioning, or to allow others to do so in our name."
and here...
That law forbade not only shedding blood, but breaking bones and a number of other things that any Whitecloak Questioner would be more than ready to do. Before any session began, Healing had to be given, and if the questioning started before sunrise, it had to end before sundown; if after sunset, then before sunrise. The law was even more restrictive when it came to initiates of the Tower, the sisters and Accepted and novices, banning the use of saidar in questioning, punishment or penance. Oh, a sister might flick a novice's ear with the Power if she was exasperated, or even give her a swat on the bottom, but not very much more.
[Robert Jordan, The Path of Daggers, page 109]
The purpose of that statement and the example sited above is not to assume an exact parallel between the United States government and the judicial system of Tar Valon. The purpose of my argument was to depict that the Aes Sedai are very careful about the way they treat their prisoners. They have very strict regulations about how they treat anyone whose guilt has not yet been lawfully determined, but they are particularly cautious and considerate about the way that they treat other Aes Sedai. I think it is also extremely important to note that once an Aes Sedai has been stilled, she is no longer an initiate of the Tower. Without the shawl or the ring, the laws that govern what can and cannot be done to the guilty party begin to slacken considerably, wouldn’t you say?
Ask yourself this. Why would the Aes Sedai provide a law that strictly governed what could and could not be done to another Aes Sedai during an interrogation? Why do they take it a step farther and set regulations to determine what can and cannot be done to those who do not belong to the Tower? I can think of only two reasons.
The first reason is to uphold some sense of ethical decorum. Very likely, this is an indication of their need (whether during the War of the Shadow or the Trolloc Wars) to separate themselves from the legions of the dark, or if during the latter, from fallen kingdoms such as Aridhol.
The second reason would be to protect other initiates of the White Tower (Aes Sedai in particular) from undue persecution! Aes Sedai, being sealed to the Tower and the Amyrlin Seat, are afforded a considerable measure of protection from cruelty until their guilt can be determined. Why would they extend that protection to sisters of the Black Ajah? The most reasonable answer is this: so that they do not mistakenly cause unlawful harm to even one sister who isn’t a darkfriend.
Now do you see why the next argument, which is that Stilling is cruel and painful, would make considerably more sense? I do not believe that the Aes Sedai, being women of sophistication, would want to risk unleashing that degree of cruelty on an innocent woman – much less on an initiate of the White Tower! – and the only way to ensure that this does not occur is to wait until the accused party’s guilt can be determined in court prior to carrying out the ceremonial stilling, questioning, and execution.
I have seen very little evidence that this system of criminal justice is in place in Randland.
In fact, there is a criminal justice system in Tar Valon that is comparable to the United States, if not an exact parallel in any way shape or form. Evidence of this justice system can be found in book seven, which I am currently re-reading. It is something that a reader can very easily overlook, and there is no fault on your part if you were unable to recall it. I was vaguely aware of this justice system before I compiled my initial argument, but it did not fall to the forefront of my mind until I read your reply.
So, first your quote:
You are assuming that Randland has a criminal justice system comparable to the U.S. where it is based on trial by combat, only the combat is verbal. Your champion in this system is your lawyer. They fight for you, and the outcome of the "fight" determines whether you are guilty or not guilty of the crime.
Now, the allusion to the justice system of Tar Valon:
Her High-backed Chair stood to the right. Only [Sareitha] wore the shawl, but Merilille’s sitting room had been arranged as a court, though no one called it that. So far no one had. Merilille, Adeleas and Vandene confronted Elayne like judges; Sareitha’s chair was placed where the Seat of Rebuke would be, and Careane’s the Seat of Pardon, but the Domani Green who would have been her defender nodded thoughtfully as the Tairen Brown who would have been her prosecutor continued.
[Robert Jordan, A Crown of Swords, page 610]
I think that it is pretty clear to us in this scene that the court Elayne recognizes is quite comparable to our own, especially when we hold it up to the light against most Feudal Courts, where a Lord simply pronounced you guilty or innocent and passes sentence after hearing your case and the testimony of any witnesses who stand in (as we see Gareth Bryne do, with Min, Siuan and Leane, in The Fires of Heaven.)
The Seat of Rebuke bares a dizzying resemblance to the “prosecuting attorney” of an American court, wouldn’t you say? It’s also worth noting that the Seat of Pardon seems to me the very equivalent of the “champion” to which you parallel a defending attorney, who would engage in verbal combat with the Seat of Rebuke. There are obviously differences. In this case, there is no jury, but three judges who preside over the court and ultimately determine the guilt or innocence of the defending party, as well as her sentence.
Please, try to be considerate of potential oversights on your part – especially when you suggest that someone has taken a course of argument that, due to an assumption of all things, caused them to act in a manner that was “arrogant and rude.” I have read the books, and while I am not beyond critical oversights, I didn’t appreciate that.
Still the Darkfriends.
03/10/2009 05:25:29 PM
- 1992 Views
Makes sense, but...
03/10/2009 07:04:27 PM
- 747 Views
Nynaeve does. Egwene did it solo in tDR. Rand did 3 at once in LoC, but men don't seem to know how
03/10/2009 07:16:03 PM
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Re: Nynaeve does. Egwene did it solo in tDR. Rand did 3 at once in LoC, but men don't seem to know h
04/10/2009 12:55:55 AM
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Is this the real stilling?
04/10/2009 09:06:32 AM
- 1104 Views
It's real stilling
04/10/2009 02:55:35 PM
- 705 Views
Re: It's real stilling
04/10/2009 06:46:58 PM
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Re: It's real stilling
04/10/2009 06:53:52 PM
- 722 Views
I think Egwene took longer because it was the first time. *NM*
04/10/2009 07:20:26 PM
- 280 Views
Not in my opinion
05/10/2009 05:00:30 AM
- 998 Views
How does that respond to what I said?
05/10/2009 05:15:57 AM
- 585 Views
Re: How does that respond to what I said?
05/10/2009 09:07:16 PM
- 607 Views
I disagree.
04/10/2009 10:03:56 PM
- 669 Views
Re: I disagree.
05/10/2009 04:58:04 AM
- 675 Views
Then...
05/10/2009 05:12:45 AM
- 576 Views
Re: Then...
05/10/2009 09:09:04 PM
- 594 Views
I'd like you to clear this up...
06/10/2009 02:18:01 AM
- 641 Views
Re: I'd like you to clear this up...
06/10/2009 07:50:33 AM
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Re: I'd like you to clear this up...
07/10/2009 02:28:34 AM
- 683 Views
Sounds good, but the Aes Sedai aren't known for making the most logical decisions. Nice Post *NM*
03/10/2009 07:47:36 PM
- 314 Views
oops i meant to put "aren't" but i accidently put are. It's edited now. Sorry for any confusion *NM*
03/10/2009 10:26:50 PM
- 298 Views
Re: Still the Darkfriends.
04/10/2009 04:51:58 AM
- 811 Views
Re: Still the Darkfriends.
04/10/2009 02:06:51 PM
- 662 Views
Re: Still the Darkfriends.
04/10/2009 05:45:16 PM
- 1336 Views
Re: Still the Darkfriends.
04/10/2009 07:20:58 PM
- 684 Views
To Clarify...
05/10/2009 12:30:28 AM
- 760 Views
Remember Shadar Logoth
04/10/2009 02:49:06 PM
- 593 Views
The only thing worse than ignoring morality for pragmatism is moralizing a non-moral issue
04/10/2009 09:36:43 PM
- 704 Views