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But did they really undeniably prove this existence? darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 09/03/2017 04:19:43 PM

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Everyone has motivations, and taking out religion deprives the author of the means of explaining motivations of characters through that prism. It might not be needed in a world where the divine is immanent in places and through avatars, and it seems like Jordan was perhaps initially thinking in that way, not only with the Forsaken, but also with the odd Green Man in the first book. However, he never really developed that idea and quickly moved away from it. I think it was a mistake. I can't think of other fantasy series that are bereft of religion the way Wheel of Time is, though I'll admit I don't read a ton of them.

It isn't a lack of "faith", they have loads of THAT, so much as... Complete and unquestioning certainty.

Personally at it's core it is the stereotypical "Scientist who believe only in logic, reason, and that which can be scientifically proven"... After you give said scientist the ability to 100% prove the existence of everything from fate, God, the soul, to just out and out magic.

The weird thing is how the bloody HELL the mindset survived the Breaking... It's as if after having proven the undeniable existence of such things, they decided to program their findings into the recently proven to exist genetic memory humanity(aka:the old blood) so as to stop any future holy war... Having forgotten, of course, that they had just proven the existence of Gods perfectly capable of starting up their own.


WoT humans are the type that if they met some kind of new god, would have no problem believing in their divinity, they can see their power with their own two eyes after all, but... Would nevertheless try and haggle out their every last miracle and blessing... Would likely end up rather pissing off some more egotistical deities.

Edit: And mind... The AoL was the age that kept it's entire population under the effects of happy-fun-time trees 24-10.


They had undeniable proof of the One Power, but the Creator and Dark One aren't actually proven to exist on a mass scale until Lanfear/Meiren let the Dark One loose in the 2nd Age and he turned out to be sentient, from what we know of that moment Mieren wasn't expecting anything other than a possible new source of power for Channeling. We never really see any evidence that prior to this anyone had proof of a living Creator. In fact they seemed far more vested in scientific uses and origin of the Power and perhaps only gave a nod to the Creator's existence from earlier Ages (such as our own) where there may well have been holy wars fought until the OP discovery, perhaps the catalyst for acceptance of "one true god". I got the impression that in the AOL people primarily thought of the OP as an energy source (ala Nuclear Power) and the rest was mostly social nicety. Of course that isn't to say that there was NO belief at all ... non-Channelers may well have viewed Channelers as something akin to demi-gods or angels or demons if there was a system of faith we are unaware of.

I think the 3rd Age folks aren't that different. They clearly believe in the Creator and Dark One and know the Aes Sedai and Forsaken are more than simply human, but most seem to go about their daily lives with little interest in any of it. I suppose having undeniable proof of the existence of the Creator and Dark One makes it pretty impossible to set up alternative religions. But even still we see almost nothing in terms of an actual religion behind even the KNOWN. Perhaps dark friends and Black Ajah have rituals we don't see, but I don't recall ever seeing any form of a religious ceremony. WOT folk in the 3rd age seem much more likely to celebrate nature and the cycle of life than they are the Creator, at least based on the various festivals and holidays they discuss.

Basically I think WOT folk "worshiped" the natural world more than the being known as the Creator (aside from the occasional prayer), they have a more druidic sort of mind set IMO. No churches or temples to the Creator were built, no clergy (unless you very broadly consider Aes Sedai as such), mostly the common folk feared the OP, even in societies like the Aiel and Sea Folk where Channelers held important roles.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Unsatisfied I suppose or perhaps regretful - 24/02/2017 02:54:12 PM 1162 Views
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We are not discussing concrete facts, so objective error is impossible - 26/02/2017 01:21:46 AM 1062 Views
In any discussion, error is possible. In your discussions, it's a near certainty. - 28/02/2017 08:24:59 PM 903 Views
On a different topic, how important do you think that stuff is? - 03/03/2017 07:20:15 AM 1016 Views
It's all about suspending disbelief, isn't it? - 04/03/2017 01:13:12 AM 989 Views
That makes a lot of sense. - 08/03/2017 10:18:56 PM 981 Views
On further reflection, I think the religion element being left out is important. - 04/03/2017 04:07:53 AM 916 Views
Middle-Earth? - 08/03/2017 09:53:45 PM 1116 Views
A Elbereth Gilthoniel... - 10/03/2017 04:48:50 PM 934 Views
Personally, "religion" in WoT makes perfect sense... For the AoL. Not so much the Third Age - 09/03/2017 01:55:29 AM 999 Views
But did they really undeniably prove this existence? - 09/03/2017 04:19:43 PM 1135 Views
Re: But did they really undeniably prove this existence? - 10/03/2017 07:47:11 AM 1094 Views
I think we are saying similar things - 12/03/2017 08:31:13 PM 1037 Views
Some points - 25/02/2017 11:54:50 PM 990 Views
Well, some THINGS anyway. - 26/02/2017 01:56:29 AM 958 Views
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Re: It felt like the end of Grease when the car flew off - 01/03/2017 11:23:18 PM 1019 Views
Re: It felt like the end of Grease when the car flew off - 02/03/2017 06:07:12 AM 894 Views
I still haven't read it. - 01/03/2017 08:03:53 PM 874 Views
Interesting, any reason why you haven't read it yet? *NM* - 01/03/2017 10:26:21 PM 515 Views
It was the end of their world as I knew it, and I felt fine. *NM* - 02/03/2017 11:13:25 PM 562 Views
You were just happy that you-know-who died! *NM* - 03/03/2017 02:47:38 AM 555 Views
Disappointed, shocked, relieved. - 03/03/2017 04:44:56 PM 838 Views
Curious - what were you hoping to happen to Rand at the end? *NM* - 03/03/2017 09:00:12 PM 575 Views
Me too! - 04/03/2017 10:19:21 AM 793 Views
I cried and I was glad it was over! - 04/03/2017 09:13:03 PM 946 Views
there's just SO MUCH that could happen - 05/03/2017 09:33:26 AM 942 Views

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