Active Users:1082 Time:22/11/2024 04:44:12 AM
That makes a lot of sense. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 08/03/2017 10:18:56 PM

View original post
For me personally, Jordan offered too much information about his languages for me to suspend my disbelief. He did exactly what you were worried that he might have done with religion - he added the element very poorly. Martin was more sparing in his work, so we just say, "Okay, it's khal instead of khan, and so forth". He didn't try to throw in tons of extended speech fragments like Jordan did (and he used a hell of a lot fewer apostrophes - those apostrophes never meant anything, either).

So perhaps you're right that it was better Jordan left out religion - had he included it, he might have done as poorly with it as he did with languages.


I get where you're coming from a lot better when you put it in those terms. I think I'm a lot closer to how they thought about religion in the medieval-type mindset than most people here, not necessarily in specific details of practice and theology or in degree of virtue or faith, but the intertwining in all other aspects of life, and seeing everything through a religious prism, but it doesn't really seem like ANY author gets it. In Martin's books, until aFfC with the rise of the Sparrows, I didn't see the point of it being there at all. The state of the faith of the Seven was more like a modern secular society, with people paying lip service as an aspect of their culture (and going to the church/temple/sept for important ceremonies as many secular people do today) than part of the lifestyle.

And of course, for the pre-christian world, religion's place in society was entirely different. From what I've read, the Romans, for instance, and some of the Greek cultures might not have been big on doctrine or sin or theology, but were what we would deem extremely superstitious, constantly attributing all sorts of things to the supernatural, and making propitious gestures, and having that stuff seriously impact their choices and actions. By contrast, most fantasy works seem to regard religion as a discrete aspect of their lives that they never worried about beyond their specific rituals and practices, often with practical purposes.

To me that's like only thinking about sex when you're in bed with a partner, and sex having absolutely no impact or considerations in any other choices or actions you take for all the rest of the day. Sexual attraction and titillation would play no role in anything, there would be no suggestive advertising, clothing would be worn entirely for practical considerations and aesthetic display of the garments, rather than accentuating the attractiveness of the body beneath, and mates or partners would be selected on practical grounds and personal compatibility, with attraction playing no part in process. That's the best comparison I can think of to the way religion is most commonly used in fantasy worlds.

Even in fantasy books with an extensive mythology, the gods are usually just for decoration. When they do play a role, it is as simply another form of antagonistic tyrant or an additional degree of power for various characters (like in Malazan), or to explain a certain rule peculiar to that setting. There are also cases where they are a source of magical power, in that organized clergy call upon them to do magic, but that is certainly unlike any real world religious experiences.

Aside from maybe Warhammer, I can't think of a single fantasy property where the normal everyday people might be inspired to wage a crusade or jihad purely on religious motivation (even allowing for the sort of self-serving impulses that no doubt motivated many real-world holy warriors). They might call it a crusade when they go after their equivalent of Sauron or the Dark One, but that's just a normal fight for freedom dressed up in religious clothes. It's not the same as fighting to retrieve something solely because you think it is important to God or to eradicate something just because you believe it is hateful to Him or to bring a powerful and fundamental truth to people who are unreasonably resisting their own betterment.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Reply to message
How did you feel after completing AMoL? - - 24/02/2017 04:03:10 AM 1719 Views
Unsatisfied I suppose or perhaps regretful - 24/02/2017 02:54:12 PM 1162 Views
I'll post this again - 25/02/2017 01:29:16 AM 873 Views
Very good post, can't argue with it. - 25/02/2017 02:40:18 AM 1087 Views
I can argue with some of it - 25/02/2017 09:32:17 PM 998 Views
You can say whatever you want, but you're wrong - 25/02/2017 10:40:58 PM 947 Views
We are not discussing concrete facts, so objective error is impossible - 26/02/2017 01:21:46 AM 1062 Views
In any discussion, error is possible. In your discussions, it's a near certainty. - 28/02/2017 08:24:59 PM 903 Views
On a different topic, how important do you think that stuff is? - 03/03/2017 07:20:15 AM 1016 Views
It's all about suspending disbelief, isn't it? - 04/03/2017 01:13:12 AM 989 Views
That makes a lot of sense. - 08/03/2017 10:18:56 PM 981 Views
On further reflection, I think the religion element being left out is important. - 04/03/2017 04:07:53 AM 916 Views
Middle-Earth? - 08/03/2017 09:53:45 PM 1116 Views
A Elbereth Gilthoniel... - 10/03/2017 04:48:50 PM 934 Views
Personally, "religion" in WoT makes perfect sense... For the AoL. Not so much the Third Age - 09/03/2017 01:55:29 AM 999 Views
But did they really undeniably prove this existence? - 09/03/2017 04:19:43 PM 1134 Views
Re: But did they really undeniably prove this existence? - 10/03/2017 07:47:11 AM 1094 Views
I think we are saying similar things - 12/03/2017 08:31:13 PM 1037 Views
Some points - 25/02/2017 11:54:50 PM 990 Views
Well, some THINGS anyway. - 26/02/2017 01:56:29 AM 958 Views
Your recognition of irony is profound - 26/02/2017 08:39:47 AM 910 Views
mosty disappointment - 27/02/2017 10:15:29 PM 927 Views
Exhausted - 27/02/2017 10:52:51 PM 922 Views
Total agree about Moiraine's return..... - 28/02/2017 03:57:57 AM 942 Views
With Demandred... That was likely at least somewhat the point. - 28/02/2017 06:09:13 AM 880 Views
Not best pleased. - 27/02/2017 11:59:06 PM 864 Views
It felt like the end of Grease when the car flew off - 01/03/2017 02:22:19 AM 920 Views
Re: It felt like the end of Grease when the car flew off - 01/03/2017 08:39:23 AM 1036 Views
Re: It felt like the end of Grease when the car flew off - 01/03/2017 11:23:18 PM 1019 Views
Re: It felt like the end of Grease when the car flew off - 02/03/2017 06:07:12 AM 894 Views
I still haven't read it. - 01/03/2017 08:03:53 PM 874 Views
Interesting, any reason why you haven't read it yet? *NM* - 01/03/2017 10:26:21 PM 515 Views
It was the end of their world as I knew it, and I felt fine. *NM* - 02/03/2017 11:13:25 PM 562 Views
You were just happy that you-know-who died! *NM* - 03/03/2017 02:47:38 AM 555 Views
Disappointed, shocked, relieved. - 03/03/2017 04:44:56 PM 838 Views
Curious - what were you hoping to happen to Rand at the end? *NM* - 03/03/2017 09:00:12 PM 575 Views
Me too! - 04/03/2017 10:19:21 AM 793 Views
I cried and I was glad it was over! - 04/03/2017 09:13:03 PM 946 Views
there's just SO MUCH that could happen - 05/03/2017 09:33:26 AM 942 Views

Reply to Message