Proper reply... - Edit 1
Before modification by Cannoli at 27/01/2017 04:08:23 AM
As for the Forsaken, I don't really know, and didn't even consider Balth/Aginor when I was writing this up. It does make some sense, I suppose, but don't forget Moiraine explained to Rand & Mat that myrdraal and super-dark Darkfriends would also be able to sense the SLPower corrupting Mat, so I'm not sure that Aginor/Balth did anything unique, they were simply in-tune enough with the TP to detect the resonance(or whatever) of the SLPower on Mat.
Anyway, that probably doesn't mean much either way, since Herid Fel seemed to think the Aelfinn's answer on the topic made sense in principle, even if he didn't know how to apply it. That being the case, I suppose anyone familiar with the Power and a reasonably competent mind could probably guess the way it worked.
as you posit i nthe next section...
Look at us being all smart-guy-theoretical and shit. Maybe we should get a fellowship or something for our work...regarding an academic theory about an aspect of a fantasy series whose author died more than a decade ago, on a website with less than a month to live. I suppose we have to get lives at SOME point, I'm just not thrilled with the idea.
Once again this does make sense, but it begs the question as to how, exactly, the Dark One managed to split the forces and use one portion of it. I suppose it would be similar to how the Creator split the OP...
Regardless, there was no breach into his prison until the Bore in the AoL. Perhaps being allowed to touch the Pattern directly allowed the DO to become sapient and gave it the ability to differentiate the Powers?
IDK about that being the point of separation, I think that they were naturally separate and either opposite or inverse of each other, as a function of their mutual joint purpose. The Dark One used just the one, because that's all he would use, by his nature and that of the power he works with. Either he is an entity who uses what is most like him and suitable for his nature, or he is an avatar or sentient expression of that aspect of the Dark.
But that was interesting regarding the idea that he became sentient upon the Bore being formed. I wouldn't specifically say that, but it is also possible that he became what lesser beings would recognize as sentient, that awareness of the world of the Pattern made him think in terms that work in alignment with the world, so as to be able to operate it and manipulate it. Like the psychological equivalent of getting down on your hands and knees to do something on the floor.
As a last point to this, I do believe the OP is to the Light etc. I do not, however, think this provides a problem for the Forsaken. If I understand you correctly, you're implying that the Light should cause harm to them because of how far under the Shadow they are.
No, more like the fact that there is absolutely no morality or anything remotely affiliated with the One Power. It doesn't even have a nature. The True Power is utterly inimical in every way, even to the description of Traveling with it. The way the Shadowspawn all came out so hateful and wrong, suggests it can't really do anything truly good or positive. Yet, the One Power has no corresponding positivity. The One Power IS just neutral. If it was an absolutely opposing force entirely affiliated with the Light as the True Power is to the Shadow, the Dark One should not have been able to taint it - instead, his touch would cancel it out, maybe making male channeling ineffectual, or rendering men unable to touch the Source. If the Shadow can taint the Light, then the Light should be able to likewise affect the True Power, but how would such a "taint" work? No, IMO, the One Power is just there, a part of nature, and not of the Light or Creator. Which fits as well with the presentation of the Creator as the architect who is removed from the functions once the design is put into play. He wouldn't leave the One Power lying around for people to play with and get so many advantages if that was the case.
If so, I disagree; the Pattern uses both Shadow and Light in its weaving, and no matter how far under the Shadow, they can still come back to the Light. Thus, even if they're under the Shadow, they still have a connection the Light just the same as any other Thread.
No, that's just something about the nature of free will. The whole point of the Pattern is that it is made up of choices, so for there to be a Pattern, free will has to remain a constant, which is why Rand could only go so far in defeating the Dark One. Philosophically, I don't agree that the Shadow is part of the Pattern. Perrin & Moiraine's discussion was confusing terms. Perrin's labeling of misfortune as "evil" was incorrect, because no one was choosing to do harm, and it certainly had nothing to do with the Shadow. It was random chance at work, and destruction and serendipity are simply aspects of extremes manifesting. The Shadow and that kind of capital E evil are beyond and outside of the Pattern, which is why he keeps trying to fuck it up. If he was part of the game, the Pattern would be weaving more manifestations of the Light in, and the Creator would be a player or piece as well. Both Dark One and Creator are above and apart from the Pattern, and are not supposed to be messing with it, but the Dark One is doing that anyway, because...well, Dark One. I definitely get the sense that in RJ's cosmology he is not a fallen creation of the Creator, and thus an order of magnitude inferior, as Satan is to God, or Sauron is to the Valar (or Horus to the Emperor). They are more like Aslan and Tash in Narnia, or Torak and Aldur in the Belgariad, or Paladine and Takhisis in Dragonlance. Roughly on an equal footing in rank or status, if not actual power. If the Dark One and the Shadow were a natural part of the Pattern, then he would have to be a Creature (something made by the Creator).
Unless I'm misunderstanding you and you're saying that, since the mindset required to use the TP is so different, that they shouldn't be able to achieve the mindset required to use the OP, which kind of makes sense.
Agreed with every one except Moghedian. She never seemed to exert her influence in Tanchico; most of the disorder in the city was due to the chaos in the countryside, anyway.
Which just might explain why she chose Tanchico as a base. It doesn't seem like the sort of place for a hyper-cautious sort like herself to use as a home, unless she did so deliberately to mask the side effects her presence would eventually generate. It would also be funny if she was one of the few Forsaken with enough self-awareness to realize that they have that effect. That might also explain why most Forsaken can't detect and locate ta'veren the way Ishamael can, that they are so self-absorbed or solipsistic they are incapable of seeing the Pattern outside of themselves, whereas Moghedian's extreme cowardice gives her a kind of hyper awareness of her metaphysical surroundings, and notices what kind of trail she leaves.
Anyway, the other option I suggested was that she was having no effect, even if the city was peaceful, because she was not exerting any influence on the rule of the city as her compatriots were doing with the Tower, the High Lords, the Council of the Nine and the Queen. The political stuff that Carridin was doing when we got there would never have been going on in a government a Forsaken was running. If Andric was under her influence, he would not have needed or sought Carridin to put his candidate for Panarch on the throne. If Moghedian was working through the council or whatever it was that normally picked the Panarch, his scheme would never have got that far. Either way, there was plainly no higher hand on the tiller.
I wonder if Graendal was having an effect on Arad Domon that was similarly swamped by the chaos, or if her effect was contrarian behavior. It would explain how all the efforts to right the ship kept failing, and also how Ituralde was able to pull off his strategy, which seemed to rely heavily on reverse psychology.
Tarabon had been at war with Arad Doman before Moghedien was likely there, and then the Dragon proclaimed himself and the Dragonsworn caused a huge civil war, in both Arad Doman and Tarabon. Tanchico itself was crazy, not because of Forsaken influence, but because of the sheer number of refugees that flooded in, which was far more than the city could deal with.
Yeah, I wasn't suggesting she caused that, I was saying that those things were waves that were making it impossible to notice whatever ripples she might have been causing. If she was, but since she was plainly not ruling, she might not have been causing any. And re: my assessment of her choosing to hide in chaos to conceal said ripples, it could also be why she would choose not to rule - rather than the simple presence of a Forsaken, it could be their dominance and control affecting many people's lives that starts having that effect, so Moghedian minimized her footprint by exercising as little influence as possible.
I wonder, though, what allowed Shai'tan to begin his 'monopoly of sentience'. Did he "exist" before the Bore was opened, or did the access to the Pattern allow the Darkness to coalesce into the form of consciousness?
Apparently I was wrong in my assumptions, as noted above, but I'd always figured that the Black Wind was a portion of Mashadar who, through interaction with the corrupted Power that built the ways and/or centuries of devouring Shadow-tainted creatures moving throughout the Ways, had become corrupted with the Shadow as well. Thus the more chaotic end to those who met the Black Wind: torn between two powers of destruction, their souls would have been caught in an endless cycle of destruction and corrupted regeneration (similar to the Trollocs Shaisam raises into undeath), would eventually have had their sanities destroyed and corrupted into becoming willing participants in the horrors that the Black Wind commits.
Like I said, I guess I was wrong though. 
Yeah Rand does say something (before re-Sealing the DO) similar to 'oblivion is not yours to give' or something, so good point.
Do you think the DO's Wheel would have looked like the vision of the Blgiht in the TR? Or the vision of the conscience-less Caemlyn? Regardless, I suspect most people'd prefer a world of an insanity-cloud, or zombies, to the world without conscience. Good can still exist in those worlds.
For my own conclusion, I think the Dark One preferred one aspect of the Evil power, selecting the pro-active one for its obvious utility, but by their nature, had to use it exclusively. Or maybe he was naturally aligned with that aspect, and one of the differences between the two is that the Consuming Power had less need for, or compatibility with, a sentient mind, being at the base, an appetite. On the other hand, the Destroying Power, would need a mind to guide it in destruction, to provide the motivating hatred. Either one would make a sufficient explanation: the supernatural Evil, or Dark, which is the counterpoint of the Light, has two complementary or contradictory aspects, one of which is a power to destroy and the other a power for consumption. While the benevolent Light rests apart from the Pattern and material world in perfect balance, the Dark which would consume or destroy it, is held in check by its own contradictory natures. Just as the Light proceeds from, or manifests the persona of, a benevolent Creator, the Dark also manifests a persona, who is attuned more closely with the Destroying Power of the Dark, whether by nature of the DP, or by his own preference as the most practicable to effect his hatred of the Light's creation. Because the Light IS harmony, it is impossible for there to be harmony in the Dark, and thus Shaitan, the persona of the Destroying Power, cannot master or balance both the Destroying and the Consuming Power. So the Dark One eventually finds his way to access the Pattern and uses the DP to corrupt and degrade the Pattern and remake portions of it in his own image, while the lives that make up the Pattern flail about in ignorance, trying to contain that damage while being unable to comprehend the scope or nature of what is doing this. The Light does not intervene, not because it is constrained, but by its very nature and the nature of the Dark. Destroying destruction itself would be a paradox, and might very well unleash an unstoppable tide of the Consuming Power without the Destroying Power to thwart it. But the Pattern is a self-correcting feedback mechanism. To the extent that the Light counters the Dark, it is with the built-in feature that allows its creation to resist and work against a threat to the system. And so, with the DP (or "Shadow" as the Power and its user, Shai'tan are collectively known) running rampant, the Pattern opens up a way to introduce the DP's antithesis into the system, and allows a sufficiently vile individual of the appropriate personal characteristics to be compatible in a fashion with the Consuming Power, to come to exist. That is, of course, how it works with ta'veren, by using an individual with the necessary personal qualities to affect many others. Likewise, it threw up the necessary combination of factors to allow the CP to manifest directly in the world as the Forsaken and their compatriots brought the DP. The initial intrusion is sufficient to tip the balance against the Shadow during the period of the Trolloc Wars, but then with its counterpart force receding, and humanity much depleted, in both numbers and moral strength, the CP lacks anything to consume and spread, and lies inert, waiting for the chance to consume more. The odd traveler and adventurer are mere crumbs, and it devours them before it can make use of them to move beyond the place where it came through the Pattern, because that atmosphere of paranoia and antipathy is so rare. There are many ways for destruction to manifest, while consumption by its nature is inherently limited. The avatar of the CP is trapped and bound in a semi-corporeal form to a limited location, just as the partially sealed Ba'alzamon is, and Shaidar Haran will later be. This avatar, Mordeth, seeks to move beyond its physical limits, by joining with a physical form, made compatible by appealing to appetites, at the limits of its ability to manifest. It finds a mortal marked and claimed by the DP, and thus is unable to thoroughly consume him, forcing a merger, but allowing the gestalt entity to resist the Dark One's power in the same way a Shadow-wrought wound and Shadar Logoth inflicted wound cancel each other out to a degree. The dagger, which carried a portion of the taint out of the locale to which it was bound, tips the balance away from the DP in Fain, and allows him to begin asserting himself over Darkfriends and Shadowspawn. His powers grow so that losing the dagger doesn't cripple him, but its recovery still brings him closer to his own apotheosis as Shaisam, avatar of the CP. His hatred of Rand, Mat and Perrin is how his recognition of their utility to spreading HIS version of the Dark manifests, and he seeks to hurt them to satisfy his own broken nature and to break them and harden them so they can turn more people into paranoid, hateful, anything-is-acceptable-against-a-foe, and draw more of the Consuming Power into the Pattern. Note that nearly everything he does is focused on stirring enemies of Rand, and ginning up hostility towards him. He likely had his own version of 13x13 in mind for the ambush in Far Madding, where Rand could not use the Power to harm him. I wonder if maybe Tainted saidin might have been even more effective on Fain. And then Rand cleanses the Taint of the DP on saidin and the taint of the CP on the ruins of Aridhol, by forcing them into contact with each other. As fragment separated from the whole, they were vulnerable to mutual destruction since only a defined & finite quantity of each was involved. Both Powers would necessarily center around the individual who sentience guided them, with the Fain/Mordeth gestalt as the new wellspring of the CP. Shaitan is too powerful, too united with the DP for him to have the same mobility in the world as Ordeith/Fain/Mordeth.
Fuck that was long.
Neat! This is all really well developed; I've thought about these concepts in similar ways but nowhere near the depth that you put it into writing.
Overdoing it is my speciality.
Not sure I agree that Fain's hatred of Rand and Mat and Perrin is entirely due to their usefullness to the CP;
No, it was pretty clearly stated to be transference, blaming them for what was done to him. What he was actually doing, however, could have been influenced by the needs of Shaisam-to-be, and like happens so often in WoT, he rationalizes the choices he makes when driven by external necessity. Fain was 'tormenting' Rand as he was, in order to, unconsciously at least, work on inducing the same attitude in him into which Mordeth twisted Aridhol. He might have THOUGHT it was all about drawing out Rand's suffering, but it does seem to dovetail with stuff that works well with his supernatural nature.
Although we are given to understand that Cadsuane is right about Rand's condition and that even his victory could be dangerous in such a state, the mechanism is never explained. The simplest reason is that he could make a bad choice, but what if the mechanism is that having an embittered and hostile attitude would make him vulnerable to cooption by Shaisam and the CP?
Fain shows condescension and disgust to Rand in Baerlon. Not quite hate, but he was busy getting super-pissed at his myrdraal handlers at the moment.
Baerlon was before SL, so he was a pure Shadow-minion at that point. The discussion of him here has to do entirely with his transformation to an agent of SLpower.
Anyways, thanks for the response! These asre the sort of conversations that drew me to wotmania back in the day, it's nice to see that 11 years later, they can still happen, even if much more rarely.