Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: Egwene the Sun God, Rand the Mother (and the nature of OP) by Cannoli

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Re: Egwene the Sun God, Rand the Mother (and the nature of OP) Cannoli Send a noteboard - 21/10/2016 11:28:14 AM

Shortly put, Egwene represents abstract thinking and order.

But she doesn't really do that. She adheres to no abstract principles or set rules and order. She pretty much adapts her point of view to what fits her circumstances. It was that way from EotW on, when she embraced the Tinker fatalism in order to enjoy herself among them, since there was no way to achieve any of her goals in the meantime. She never seeks power to achieve a particular end, the gaining of that power is her end, as she sacrifices many previously expressed intentions or goals in order to secure her control.

"She...May not deal in doubt or pity--must not swerve for fact or jest
These be purely male diversions, not in these her honor dwells...

She is wedded to convictions - in default of grosser ties;
Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him who denies!--
He will meet no suave discussion, but the instant white hot wild,
Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child."
Egwene is totally a stereotypical female.

She is the masculine sun god, ruling from the Apollonian heights of her phallic Tower with her relentless greed.

Seriously though, the most memorable and noteworthy thing Egwene did in the Tower was stand in a hole in the side to defend against invaders. She was literally the mother defending her home and children. She never fought successfully in the masculine manner - her only combat achievements were self-sacrificing, healing and protective. Rand's greatest battle achievement was going into a hole to impose his will. You don't get any more archetypal masculine than that.

Rand is the fertile mother,

More like the virile patriarch. He doesn't do any nurturing or care-taking, he simply sets things in motion, and imposes his will and order as best he can. It is left to his mates to care for the world he saves, and to maintain what he got started.

He never became "the Lord of Chaos",

Actually, pertaining to the use of that term in the series, Egwene is totally the eponymous character of the book. The Lord of Chaos is a figurehead, specifically chosen for his or her unsuitability to lead, whom all make a pretense of obeying and serving, in the full knowledge that his reign is coming to an end very shortly. That meaning would seem to be confirmed by Taim's use of the phrase when the Reds ask to bond Asha'man: he was warning them that even as the bondholders, they would have no more power than the lord of chaos of the festivals. Titling the book where Egwene is raised as Amyrlin "Lord of Chaos" can mean nothing else.

i.e. embraced the chaotic side of nature where good and evil intermingle: a realization (the DO was not evil) that led to Rand's victory.

He never had that revelation, his insight was regarding the Dark One's impotence.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*

This message last edited by Cannoli on 21/10/2016 at 11:29:00 AM

Edit 1 by Cannoli on 21/10/2016 at 11:29:00 AM

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Gender in WoT kHz1000 - 19/10/2016 05:25:44 PM 1375 Views

Egwene the Sun God, Rand the Mother (and the nature of OP) kHz1000 - 20/10/2016 01:30:05 PM 723 Views

Re: Egwene the Sun God, Rand the Mother (and the nature of OP) Dunstan - 20/10/2016 04:46:54 PM 700 Views

Re: Egwene the Sun God, Rand the Mother (and the nature of OP) Cannoli - 21/10/2016 11:28:14 AM 807 Views

Re: Egwene the Sun God, Rand the Mother (and the nature of OP) kHz1000 - 21/10/2016 12:44:08 PM 654 Views

Re: Egwene the Sun God, Rand the Mother (and the nature of OP) Cannoli - 23/10/2016 12:32:14 AM 746 Views

Re: Egwene the Sun God, Rand the Mother (and the nature of OP) kHz1000 - 23/10/2016 08:43:57 PM 637 Views

Sanderson's fan service gay characters were a mistake kHz1000 - 20/10/2016 02:56:34 PM 828 Views

It was wrong because sodomy is an abomination against the Light Cannoli - 21/10/2016 11:04:08 AM 788 Views

Re: It was wrong because sodomy is an abomination against the Light kHz1000 - 21/10/2016 11:14:41 AM 732 Views

Re: It was wrong because sodomy is an abomination against the Light Cannoli - 21/10/2016 11:31:16 AM 856 Views

Re: It was wrong because sodomy is an abomination against the Light kHz1000 - 21/10/2016 12:28:11 PM 679 Views

The difference in the Wheel's "punishment" of of the Forsaken goes back to what was said in TGH. Dunstan - 21/10/2016 04:24:12 PM 679 Views

I don't know that she had it any worse than the others darius_sedai - 25/10/2016 02:53:49 AM 699 Views

This honestly never bothered me that much ßelals Girl - 21/10/2016 03:50:37 PM 763 Views

Re: This honestly never bothered me that much kHz1000 - 21/10/2016 04:05:20 PM 712 Views

Re: This honestly never bothered me that much ßelals Girl - 21/10/2016 06:24:43 PM 795 Views

Re: This honestly never bothered me that much kHz1000 - 21/10/2016 07:28:34 PM 682 Views

Since you don't seem to know what your opinion actually is ßelals Girl - 21/10/2016 08:08:26 PM 654 Views

Re: Since you don't seem to know what your opinion actually is kHz1000 - 21/10/2016 08:30:31 PM 674 Views

That's an unfair assessment darius_sedai - 24/10/2016 04:13:45 AM 924 Views

Re: That's an unfair assessment Cannoli - 25/10/2016 12:41:51 AM 895 Views

Should have been more clear darius_sedai - 25/10/2016 02:34:41 AM 738 Views

Oh, yes, that's a good point then. Cannoli - 01/11/2016 10:18:07 AM 695 Views

I agree darius_sedai - 01/11/2016 03:49:45 PM 800 Views

On f**king kHz1000 - 20/10/2016 04:28:31 PM 885 Views

Double post *NM* kHz1000 - 20/10/2016 04:33:11 PM 341 Views

Makes me wonder how they will handle if the produce a TV show darius_sedai - 23/10/2016 03:03:18 PM 844 Views

IMHO dexterity only ever seemed to BE an equalizer power-wise in head to head combat. Dunstan - 23/10/2016 04:35:28 PM 814 Views

Re: IMHO dexterity only ever seemed to BE an equalizer power-wise in head to head combat. kHz1000 - 23/10/2016 05:41:27 PM 634 Views

If ether of their Traveling weaves needed to use less raw Power, it's the male's. Dunstan - 23/10/2016 06:17:04 PM 729 Views

Part of this is perception not reality darius_sedai - 23/10/2016 06:52:47 PM 776 Views

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<quote id="291291">
<quote>
Shortly put, Egwene represents abstract thinking and order.</quote> 
But she doesn't really do that.  She adheres to no abstract principles or set rules and order.  She pretty much adapts her point of view to what fits her circumstances.  It was that way from EotW on, when she embraced the Tinker fatalism in order to enjoy herself among them, since there was no way to achieve any of her goals in the meantime.  She never seeks power to achieve a particular end, the gaining of that power is her end, as she sacrifices many previously expressed intentions or goals in order to secure her control.

<center>"She...May not deal in doubt or pity--must not swerve for fact or jest
These be purely male diversions, not in these her honor dwells...

<center>She is wedded to convictions - in default of grosser ties;
Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him who denies!--
He will meet no suave discussion, but the instant white hot wild,
Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child." </center>
Egwene is totally a stereotypical female.

<quote>She is the masculine sun god, ruling from the Apollonian heights of her phallic Tower with her relentless greed. </quote>
Seriously though, the most memorable and noteworthy thing Egwene did in the Tower was stand in a hole in the side to defend against invaders. She was literally the mother defending her home and children.  She never fought successfully in the masculine manner - her only combat achievements were self-sacrificing, healing and protective.  Rand's greatest battle achievement was going into a hole to impose his will.  You don't get any more archetypal masculine than that.

<quote>Rand is the fertile mother,</quote>More like the virile patriarch. He doesn't do any nurturing or care-taking, he simply sets things in motion, and imposes his will and order as best he can. It is left to his mates to care for the world he saves, and to maintain what he got started.

<quote>He never became "the Lord of Chaos",</quote> 
Actually, pertaining to the use of that term in the series, Egwene is totally the eponymous character of the book.  The Lord of Chaos is a figurehead, specifically chosen for his or her unsuitability to lead, whom all make a pretense of obeying and serving, in the full knowledge that his reign is coming to an end very shortly. That meaning would seem to be confirmed by Taim's use of the phrase when the Reds ask to bond Asha'man: he was warning them that even as the bondholders, they would have no more power than the lord of chaos of the festivals.  Titling the book where Egwene is raised as Amyrlin "Lord of Chaos" can mean nothing else.

<quote>i.e. embraced the chaotic side of nature where good and evil intermingle: a realization (the DO was not evil) that led to Rand's victory. </quote>He never had that revelation, his insight was regarding the Dark One's impotence.

</quote>

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