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Re: No. I'm questioning what constitues being a Diety. Existence and the act of creation do not IMO Dunstan Send a noteboard - 07/03/2016 05:17:04 AM

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At least not ONLY the act of creation. To me a Diety must actively participate in and be worshiped by his/her followers to actually be a Diety. It is possible for a sentient being to have created everything without being the Diety of what it created. WoTs creator is neither worshiped nor seeks worship.

Christian, Muslim and Hindu gods all actively participated in active worship and took part actively in the belief systems of their followers. This to me is a key differentiator.

The Dark One actually makes promises quiet similar to a Diety, but as a reader we know his most likely motivation is nihilism or possibly a total re-creation, in effect making him the creator of a new universe where he seeks to be actively worshiped. Given his loss he never actually achieves deification.

I submit that neither the DO or the Creator are no more than cosmically powerful entities. Perhaps in other Ages one or both are more than this, but not during the events of the 2nd, 3rd or 4th ages. I would argue that there are humans who have created concept in these ages that are consistent with various religions in the real world, but without the Creators active participation Imdo not see this as qualifying as "religion".


Just as "the Shadow" is just WoT speak for hell/the Dark One, so is "the Light" just WoT speak for heaven/The Creator.

Indeed, though not exactly center stage, their belief of a... "Betweenlife" is that their soul goes to be with the Creator in the Light. "In the palm of the Creator's hand" and all that.

Basically it's just the Tolkien style translator glitching out every time someone says the word "god"... "Hellspawn" is pretty blatant, but they have a group of people who go around calling themselves "the children of heaven/God". Telling people to "walk with God/In the Light of God".

Then there is the unavoidable fact that if the Dark One is in fact literally all evil in existence, then that quite naturally means that the Creator is all good in existence. Thus both... Are literally a part of every one, and likely thing, in existence.

Then there is the True Power, which because of the whole balance thing the Creator and Dark One have going on... Says quite a bit about the One Power and it's nature.

...To say nothing of the fact that Rand has more then once used the OP to make a sword out of the Light... Not "light" mind, but quite explicitly THE Light... Which basically means that Rand made a sword out of the Creator in order to cut those black cords.


Took me a long time to realize it, but channelers aren't really "mages" they're "clerics". Calling on the power of a god who believes firmly in "do as you will". Who has no concept of "sin". Baring the likes of a Grayman feeding their soul to the Dark One, even the Forsaken themselves return to the Creator upon death.

Hell, just look at the effects the OP has on channelers through the liens of "touching God". It gets very religious very quickly. Everything from the heighten state of mind, the heath and long life, to the lose of will to live once it's gone.

... The bigger question personally is whether or not the people IU know of the nature of the OP. Even when RJ talked about

<qoute>
Interview: Apr, 2003
Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)
Rhynn
Are there any religions in the world of the Wheel of Time?
Robert Jordan
No. No religions, no churches: that will change in the next set of books, not in this, but where religion becomes in some ways preeminent, but...
Mort
[interrupts] Oh, is that a spoiler?? No, no!
Robert Jordan
No, that's not for the Wheel of Time at all, and may change somewhat, as these things do. But the reason is this: I've always believed that our religious rituals our attendance at temples, or churches, or whatever is, in part, a reaffirmation of our faith, and a reaffirmation of our belief, a strengthening of our belief in something that we cannot see. And we do these things in order to strengthen our belief in what we cannot see. God, Allah, whatever...but, in this world, it is a world that...as if we had...prophets walking around...performing miracles. The One Power can be channeled. Occasionally men show up channeling the One Power; the Aes Sedai have been there for 3000 years.
Question
But the Creator does not interfere!
Robert Jordan
The Creator does not interfere, but there is clear evidence of the theological doctrine.
Question
Of the unseen.
Robert Jordan
Of the unseen. As far as it is believed, of the existence of the Creator: Here is the One Power. Here is evidence of everything we believe. There is therefore no need for anyone to undergo rituals to reaffirm or strengthen their belief because it is manifest every day. If we really had prophets walking among us, performing miracles and healing people and raising the dead—and this was a matter of every day that somebody might walk down the street and say 'In the name of...' and lay their hand on you. 'In the name of God be healed,' and your wounds are healed. Or, 'In the name of God rise up and walk,' and your dead brother, just died of cholera or whatever rises up and walks—I believe that organized religion would vanish within a generation, or at least become a fringe within a generation, because there would no longer be a need for most people to reaffirm their belief in God, or to strengthen their belief in God, or Allah, or whatever else their religious belief is. It would be manifest in every day life.
Wood Sun
And how about the Whitecloaks? I mean they look like some sort of religious sect.
Robert Jordan
Which?
Question
(two girls in unison) The Whitecloaks!
Robert Jordan
The Whitecloaks? Well, they're meant to look as a religious sect. They began as, an ascetic organization dedicated to preaching against Darkfriends, trying to convince people by example that they should not become Darkfriends. And during the War of the Hundred Years they became a military organization. They are patterned on the Teutonic Knights, a touch of the German SS, and...
Wood Sun
[interrupts] And the Spanish Inquisition?
Robert Jordan
A touch of the Spanish Inquisition. (laughter) They are in short anyone who believes that they know the Truth—the Truth with a capital T. They know the Truth so well, and its so clear to them that if you don't believe that truth, then it becomes obvious that you are evil.
</qoute>

He kept saying how the OP proves the existence of the Creator... And if it is a thing that, much like "where do souls go between lives?", is known, just not really talked about... Well, it sure makes the whole "it is blasphemy for humans to channel the One Power" thing make a bit more sense.

... And hey, there is also that time the symbol of the OP repelled a Darkhound like a cross to a vampire... which itself leads to the "Banner of the Light"... Which in turn is people basically calling Rand some form of "chosen by God".

There isn't really "religion" in WoT, but just about everybody in it is "religious". It's just that this is a setting where you can literally tell if someone is missing a soul just by touching them... No magical power needed, it's just how it works in setting.

Most of their beliefs come from the AoL. It is by and large handled more as "science" then "religion"... It's just a "science" that is perfectly capable of dissecting the soul, and even stepping outside existence.

... Indeed, the AoL is basically a civilization POWERED by God, and that fell when it decided that that wasn't enough... Not because of some "sin" mind, but simply because trying to plug your smartphone directly into the devil isn't exactly a... "Safe" idea.


... Which is all pretty much to say that when a being created existence, is literally a part of everyone in existence, and even serves as the afterlife FOR said people... Saying "he isn't a Diety because he isn't actively worship" sounds like little more then an excuse.

A setting calling a rabbit a nicu doesn't do a thing to change the taste of nicu stew.

This message last edited by Dunstan on 07/03/2016 at 05:17:30 AM
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Re: No. I'm questioning what constitues being a Diety. Existence and the act of creation do not IMO - 07/03/2016 05:17:04 AM 1074 Views
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