Active Users:1026 Time:23/12/2024 05:30:17 PM
A non-deity Creator is a distinction without a difference Joel Send a noteboard - 16/02/2016 03:52:24 AM

By (apparent) coincidence, I just happen to already have Wikipedias article on the Kalam cosmological argument open, so I will just cite a highly pertinent quote from one of that arguments chief modern advocates:

"... transcending the entire universe there exists a cause which brought the universe into being ex nihilo ... our whole universe was caused to exist by something beyond it and greater than it. For it is no secret that one of the most important conceptions of what theists mean by 'God' is Creator of heaven and earth."


View original post
View original post
View original postYou will note there is no gospel or any sort of received wisdom from the known deities. In fact, even the DOs followers, who appear far closer to any organized religion than anyone else in WoT, only follow orders and oaths.

Prayer to the Creator seems to be treated as a personal thing, for the most part, and no one forces it on you if that isn't what you want to do.

Anyone claiming to speak on behalf of the Creator seems to be met with a healthy dose of contempt. Even nominally "devout" people like Nynaeve are skeptical of Masema, not just for himself but even his claim that the Dragon Reborn, the closes thing they have to a messiah, is actually somehow more connected to the Creator than random dude.

And you will notice that while Masema himself tried to impose certain strictures, about how women should dress and so on, you can almost sense Jordan rolling his eyes when he writes Nynaeve's PoV on this. Same with the Whitecloaks, who try to impose a certain kind of behavior to be called something like a "true believer". The majority of WoT society, however, is spiritual and may even be devout, but they don't behave in a certain way so as to gain the Creator's favor.


All that fits the Creators hands off approach, too. Jordans world is very Manichean, which requires a lot of latitude for its inhabitants.

There is no actual confirmation that The Creator or the Dark One are actual dieties.

Again, if it walks, talks and creates like not just a deity but THE deity, what one chooses to call it is a matter of taste, not nature.


View original postMassively powerful entities for certain, but there is nothing to say the Creator was even a single entity or had a true will or had any interest in giving direction to his creation (even assuming he actually created).

On the contrary, the available evidence UNANIMOUSLY states the Creator is a single individual: Because that is both how he refers to himself and how the DO (the ONE individual possessing direct personal experience with the Creator) refers to him. The DO often speaks of his existential conflict with the Creator, a conflict in which his victory is defined by UNcreation (something that, even among the Forsaken, only advanced philosopher Ishamael even realizes, much less endorses) but he never once refers to his enemy as CreatorS.

Further (again citing a point from Kalams conveniently present argument) the very act of creation is necessarily an act of volition (i.e. DIRECTED will,) because

"Agent causation, volitional action, is the only ontological condition in which an effect can arise in the absence of prior determining conditions. Therefore, only personal, free agency can account for the origin of a first temporal effect from a changeless cause."

Merely positing a Creator necessarily makes him both a deity in every meaningful sense AND possessed of active will (else his divine creative power would have remained unused.) An object uncreated tends to stay uncreated unless actively willed by an outside Creator.

That "he actually created" is not "assuming," it is canon (literary, though it is also a catechism--to a great extent THE catechism--of Randland.) The One Power (note the singular, despite its polar nature) as not only the Creators power but the power OF CREATION is universally accepted even by people who agree on nothing else: Not only White Cloaks and Aes Sedai alike, but even the DO and Forsaken, the latter only discovering the former during an attempt to find a power source distinct from the unitary One Power. The Wheel of Time is a fantasy series, yes, but the fantasy of its author and readers--not its CHARACTERS.

We are not just talking about an unreliable narrator here, but literally EVERYONE IN THE SERIES being fundamentally in error about the nature of their world, an error which is equally fundamental to the series itself.


View original postFor most of time the Dark One is an unknown, only having any sort of presence outside of the 3rd Age and even then has extremely limited ability to influence the world. His power seems largely based in the humans who follow a set of rules they create.

Except for when people use the DOs VERY ESSENCE (i.e. the True Power) to duplicate all the effects possible by use of the Creators very essence, as well as warp his creation into twisted amoral hybrids. That is quite an exception though, as is the Blight.

The Wheel of Times whole PREMISE is its religious inspiration. It is a work of fiction, so people who see all religion as fiction can enjoy it as just another such offering. But denying the validity of its basis within the series itself is self-evidently untenable. One may or may not accept religion, but asserting that the Wheel of Time is not religious is like asserting the Bible is not.

Honestly, I only happened to re-open that Wikipedia link because 1)I happened to be reconnecting earlier today with a friend I had not spoken with for about a year, 2) he happens to be pursuing a theology doctorate and 3) I wanted to ask his thoughts on the Kalam cosmological argument because it happens to be the view I subscribed to for decades before discovering its long existed as a formal theological argument (frankly, the only surprise there is that it took me so long to find.) As Gandalf noted of happening upon Thorin impotently brooding over revenge fantasies, and Bilbo consequently happening to rediscover the One Ring "a chance meeting, as we say in the West."

Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
"I am that I am"
Reply to message
What unsolved mysteries do you think other posters can help you with? - 22/12/2015 12:10:32 PM 2779 Views
Moridin - 22/12/2015 05:25:42 PM 1431 Views
I would agree on that. - 23/12/2015 11:19:44 AM 1423 Views
Alviarin seems the most likely culprit for Sarha - 23/12/2015 06:07:16 PM 1488 Views
She was also the one who saw Sahra talking to Min *NM* - 23/12/2015 10:42:31 PM 762 Views
Why this Third Age - 31/12/2015 07:02:38 AM 1537 Views
Some small things - 03/01/2016 07:43:02 PM 1495 Views
Re: Some small things - 03/01/2016 08:41:09 PM 1531 Views
Re: Some small things - 03/01/2016 08:57:15 PM 1435 Views
Re: Some small things - 03/01/2016 09:07:22 PM 1610 Views
Re: Some small things - 03/01/2016 09:21:56 PM 1342 Views
Re: Some small things - 03/01/2016 09:37:23 PM 1384 Views
Is there confirmation of who sent the 100,000 trollocs? *NM* - 03/01/2016 08:03:24 PM 849 Views
Re: Is there confirmation of who sent the 100,000 trollocs? EDIT - 03/01/2016 08:44:04 PM 1407 Views
Re: Is there confirmation of who sent the 100,000 trollocs? EDIT - 04/01/2016 11:10:54 AM 1459 Views
true - 05/01/2016 04:44:26 PM 1228 Views
Re: true - 09/01/2016 10:15:07 PM 1387 Views
Could she have sent the Trollocs without Moridin knowing though? - 09/01/2016 10:49:44 PM 1320 Views
I think it was Demandred. Verin gave the hint in KOD actually. - 04/03/2016 09:59:36 PM 1855 Views
I wonder how crazy Rand was? - 03/01/2016 11:51:42 PM 1377 Views
I'm going with pretty damn crazy - 05/01/2016 04:47:19 PM 1451 Views
Re: I wonder how crazy Rand was? - 17/01/2016 07:47:11 AM 1183 Views
Something about pillow friends - 09/01/2016 07:53:48 PM 1319 Views
Re: Something about pillow friends - 09/01/2016 10:16:36 PM 1485 Views
Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 09/01/2016 08:07:06 PM 1301 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 09/01/2016 10:21:16 PM 1446 Views
Agreed - 09/01/2016 11:07:13 PM 1053 Views
Re: Agreed - 09/01/2016 11:24:50 PM 1101 Views
Exactly - 09/01/2016 11:42:14 PM 1044 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 09/01/2016 11:13:22 PM 962 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 09/01/2016 11:33:54 PM 1264 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 10/01/2016 12:12:01 AM 1215 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 10/01/2016 09:23:46 PM 1068 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 10/01/2016 10:25:12 PM 1082 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 11/01/2016 06:11:37 PM 1173 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 11/01/2016 06:04:00 AM 1421 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 10/01/2016 02:25:21 PM 1760 Views
What Logain quote are you referencing? *NM* - 11/01/2016 06:07:57 PM 609 Views
Logain stated that Rand is stronger than him because he makes larger Gateways *NM* - 11/01/2016 06:24:34 PM 598 Views
Oh I thought he was referencing a homophobic comment! *NM* - 11/01/2016 06:43:48 PM 648 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 16/01/2016 02:44:01 AM 1530 Views
That is a big logical leap, and dodges rather than answering the question - 08/02/2016 11:52:11 AM 1245 Views
Re: That is a big logical leap, and dodges rather than answering the question - 13/02/2016 03:52:18 AM 1173 Views
Jordans world lacks a God or religions? - 13/02/2016 04:57:10 PM 1300 Views
Re: Jordans world lacks a God or religions? - 14/02/2016 09:33:18 AM 1485 Views
Just because Randland is Deist does not make it deity-free. - 14/02/2016 01:59:58 PM 1321 Views
It is better to say there is no organized religion - 14/02/2016 10:12:35 PM 1137 Views
That sounds about right - 15/02/2016 11:21:42 AM 1110 Views
Perhaps, but perhaps not - 16/02/2016 01:26:46 AM 1091 Views
A non-deity Creator is a distinction without a difference - 16/02/2016 03:52:24 AM 1328 Views
I don't think I'm making my point clear - 17/02/2016 02:36:51 AM 990 Views
Re: That is a big logical leap, and dodges rather than answering the question - 14/02/2016 09:31:21 AM 1416 Views
Not disputing any of that - 15/02/2016 11:52:45 AM 1093 Views
How did Narg learn the common tongue? Is he just smart? *NM* - 11/01/2016 11:30:49 PM 556 Views
He was one of the smarter Trollocs, yeah - 11/01/2016 11:45:54 PM 1106 Views

Reply to Message