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Re: How is this a concession? Sidious Send a noteboard - 04/01/2016 10:49:20 AM

Why should I walk back my opinion just because you don't like it? Why should I concede anything?

Because no one is ever always right about everything. I don't care about your opinion on Egwene, I care about you spewing claims that are directly contradicted by the books. When these are shown to you, you make up some lame excuse as to why the quote is not relevant.

Cannoli: The sky is green.
Poster : Yes but here is a post that says that sky is blue. Here it is.
Cannoli: That's Sanderson screwing up again - it's green OR blue is actually a shade of green OR It was the green at that second for X reasons and for the rest of the series it was blue OR you're all color blind.


Whether or not I make concessions has NOTHING to do with whether or not I am right on a particular issue.

No one disputes that, but two posters showed you evidence that you are wrong and you won't back down. You claimed that Egwene defeated Mesaana because she had an army. That is factually incorrect but you refuse to admit it despite the fact that the two of them were sealed away in an area that no one else had access to for the actual duel. That's also only one example - you made factual errors regarding the defense of the Tower against the Seanchan, and you deliberately omitted that Taim had Sakarnen to falsely distort the fact that Egwene used Vora's Wand against him and to diminish her achievement.


What you are really saying is, "I like arguing until it gets hard; or I relish a determined opponent, as long as he eventually gives up and lets me win!"

See above.


but not compared to Nynaeve or Rand or Moiraine.

She probably achieved as much as Nynaeve and she far, far outstripped Moiraine in terms of achievements. Moiraine spent more than half the series being sucked dry by the Finns. Before that her noticeable accomplishments included finding and protecting Rand and saving him from Be'lal and Lanfear. When Moiraine returned she initiated a link to trap Moridin but any other female channeler in the world could have done that.


She beat Mesaana in a way you even admitted was stupid

I admitted that the thought that gave her the power to defeat Mesaana was stupid. Mesaana was an accomplished Forsaken with proficient mental strength and intelligence, and Egwene as a 21 year old broke her mind.


and M'hael as a function of their equipment -hers let her suicide bomb him.

Except she didn't suicide bomb him - she overdrew and overpowered him. Even before that she decimated the entire Sharan channeling army as well as defeated him with standard channeling weaves before he ran off to cry to Demandred. The fact that she also found a weave to counter balefire is monumental, and an achievement on a level of the Healing of Stilling. It would be similar to finding a counter curse to the Killing Curse in Harry Potter - it is widely known to not be blockable. These are all great achievements.


On the other hand, Nynaeve beat Moghedian through a skill she had taken specific pains to hone prior to their confrontation, and by observational awareness of her surrounds, and some deductive reasoning.

You mean when she and Nynaeve got into a shielding battle that Nynaeve could stand against only because she was born with rare strength in the Power? The a'dam idea later was excellent and a great idea, but she was saved a third time only because of Birgitte, and it's remarkable she didn't die when Moghedien balefired her ship.


Aviendha did something similar with Hessalm Hessalam Graendal mk2.

Meh, this is the sort of bias that is irritating. Aviendha only managed to spear Graendal because she was distracted by arguably the most powerful women in Randland, like Cadsuane, Alivia and Talaan all working as desperately as they could to overwhelm this woman. Even though Aviendha knew how to pick apart weaves, she messed up the gateway one and luckily it went nuclear and rebuffed Graendal's compulsion, otherwise she would have been a mindless zombie by now. Aviendha's defeat of Graendal was a true 'army' scenario against one Forsaken (unlike Egwene), and luck of the highest order.


All Egwene did was prevent Mesaana from winnowing a handful of the more inept channelers at the last moment.

Including Egwene who then went on to kill M'Hael and an army of 400 Sharan channelers.


It's not like Mesaana was acting against the world on a scale akin to Rahvin or Sammael or Bel'al, or doing her thing as effectively as Graendal had been.

The WT could have been more effective in the Last Battle if not for Mesaana and the Black Ajah. The divisions sown there caused deep damage to a major channeling organization. And let's not forget that Graendal was killed by the Shadow for her incompetence.


However preposterous you claim my reason is, who is to say you are right and I am wrong, when I find your presentation of beating Mesaana as comparable to beating Moghedian or Graendal or Lanfear even more preposterous.

So physically tackling Lanfear into a ter'angreal where you have actually seen the outcome due to a vision is the same as getting into a mental battle with one of the FS in TAR? Lanfear didn't even know that Moiraine was there, so does blindsiding count as cowardice or does she get points for that? At least she announced herself to Be'lal and owned him face to face.


But Egwene says that now she has suffered comparably to Rand, and you people swallow it as an objective fact.

Rand also likes to tell us how much he's suffered, so there's that PoV trap too. He's a pity party only rivaled by Mat. Rand has maybe suffered more than Egwene but she's also had a tough time, including being a damane for months and at the mercy of a true sadist, unlike Rand who was beaten once a day for... a week? Then again, he was a murderer who killed two warders with his bare hands, so a beating seems rather mild as punishment. I suppose he was subjected to Semirhage for a whole three minutes. No wonder he cracked. Of course Rand also had tons of sex and none of his wives died or even really suffered, whereas Egwene died a virgin after her betrothed was killed by Demandred. Maybe we should revisit this topic...


Egwene takes an army into Tel'Aran'Rhiod, along with the greatest living experts in that place, to face a bunch of ill-trained Black sisters, and a Forsaken, who, unlike Lanfear or Moghedian, has never been cited as having any particular ability with the dreamworld

The Aiel said that the Shadowsouled were all good in TAR even early on in the series. The fact that Mesaana nearly did defeat Egwene proves that she is proficient in TAR.


the only manages to corner her quarry because Perrin wandered by with the dreamspike

Great the dreamspike again. So Mesaana can't get out of the place either and it's Egwene's advantage, despite the fact that she's surrounded by the 'greatest living experts in the place'. That's like saying that Androl and Pevara had the advantage in the BT because Taim also couldn't Travel.


Nynaeve taking on Moghedian all alone, with no advance warning or allies capable of more than an ineffectual distraction, turning T'A'R against its mistress

No advanced warning? She snuck up on Moghedien initially of her own accord. She then went into TAR to deliberately look for Moghedien. How was she all alone when Birgitte shot Mogehdien in the chest with an arrow?


and then coopting the Forsaken to helping Rand kill Rahvin.

Because the a'dam leaves Moghedien with so much choice.


She has no military accomplishments through the real books, although a great deal of military criticisms to offer; the political stakes of her arc are the lowest of anyone's, they are mostly achieved by authorial loopholes, rather than genuine successes, like winning battles, or eliminating genuine threats, and she makes no good or useful reforms as Rand, Mat, Perrin & Elayne all do, and finishes up too late to contribute to any of the other things going on.

She united the ajahs and reversed all of Elaida's damage. She executed the BA. She discovered weaves that changed the world forever, not least Travelling, most likely the greatest female channeling feat since the AOL. You can add cuendillar and the flame of tar valon to this. The Flame may actually have uses outside of combat considering it's a weave to counter complete destruction. Watch this space.

All of Mat's accomplishments are due to the Finns. He basically got to rub a bottle with a genie inside and received gifts that made him amazing, but oh so not what he would have been if he was bereft of these items. Elayne was given a country by birthright - she accomplished nothing except clever political posturing to get what was hers anyway, and she copied ter'angreal and made some weak new ones that no one really wants to use and probably can't sell. Perrin talks to wolves and gets a Power-forged hammer and does a few great things, once again with those extraneous gifts. Rand is the only one who really stands a chance here, and his contributions to the world are undoubted.


Egwene only delivers the goods in a very mundane fashion compared to what so many others do in the same series.

Pure opinion.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 04/01/2016 at 11:02:34 AM
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