Re: How I see Traveling... - Edit 1
Before modification by fionwe1987 at 29/12/2015 02:37:05 AM
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No one can make a gateway as large as Rand in the series. 4x4 is the maximum for any single channeler. And how do you know 'who is in the know'? What's wrong with Logain's judgment of saidin?
Hate to bring this up.. but no:
It can only track within the channeler. I'm saying you can't use it reliably to compare channelers. Androl alone should be proof of that, as should Aviendha. As should Rand's retaining the same size as he grew in strength (or used an angreal).
So RJ put that in to show how ignorant Logain is. In all likelihood, he was answering a question that was asked to him dozens of times by readers and his resultant RAFO became something tangible.
Except he already answered the question in tFoH!
Androl has never exceeded Rand's gateway sizes unaided.
He does.
Uhhh... you do know he tied off those gateways and had them dissipate soon so only a few would reach all the different places, right? The only Gateway he left open was the one for Sevanna, and we don't get any size for that. We only get Shaidar Haran come soon after, and say there were 3 Gateways he could sense, and there was at least one of saidar. We don't know what the sizes were. Was Sammael keeping his the same size as Graendal's to not have anyone suspicious about the different sizes? Was even Graendal making the largest she could, given that the point wasn't to cleanly let each sept make it fully, but to just let random numbers reach random places to increase chaos?
If you grow in strength your gateways get larger - therefore strength equals gateway size.
Not true. When you grow in strength, your Talent remains the same. Someone with greater Talent, but similar strength, might get even larger Gateways than you for the same increase in strength.
Or that it is a moderate strength channeler with a pretty high chance for having a higher than average, but still less than Androl, level of Talent. Why do you think it can only be one extreme or the other?
I've never claimed that you need to use all of your ability to weave your largest gateway. I said the exact opposite in my original post. Aviendha is struggling because she is trying to relearn a weave and it's difficult.
Then what the heck is setting Gateway size? Rand and Asmodean say it has nothing to do with the OP, and is a "dream of a dream". This tracks well with the connection between entering TAR and Traveling that we learn of from Egwene.
It's likely that people who need more OP to make their largest gateways struggle with Spirit (or Fire in Men). Considering Rand is strong in all the Powers, it's likely he got to 4x4 early on, and couldn't improve on that.
Weakness in the Flows can certainly be a factor, but why not level of Talent?
That makes zero sense. Why would frigging 99% have only average Talent? Something so far from a normal distribution would have a major reason behind it.
She'll use less saidar, obviously. If Nynaeve has a strength of 96 (or whatever) then she needs 65 to make a good sized gateway. She can probably make her biggest gateway with 75. As an example.
But, per Rand, there's a limit to that. If she goes from 75 to 96, she won't increase her Gateway size, for example. So once again, it seems actual strength has not much to do with the maximum sized Gateway you can make.
Well he's probably as strong as Sorilea and can make gateways that are as big as the Forsaken, so yes he's an extreme outlier like Berowin. It's rare enough to surprise people. The books even say that the guys at the BT can't believe it.
Yes, but you're saying he has an incredible amount of Talent, but there's nothing between him and someone with average Talent. That seems just stupid to me.
I told you that Rand made 4x4 and both Sammael and Osangar made slightly smaller gateways, and they're at ++2/++3. It's not a coincidence. There's then Logain who says that Rand must be stronger than him because his gateways are bigger. That is direct evidence from the books that you are choosing to ignore. We see in the same scene that the other AM have smaller deathgates than Rand.
Yet, no proof that Rand's Gateway Talent is average. Didn't Asmodean once say Rand stopping a Gateway from closing was something few could replicate, and doesn't that indicate he may be better with Gateways than the average?
Because she had extraordinary levels of Talent. Unless you think there's a Talent for making chairs dance...
Well sometimes. When Rand breaks free from the AS he smashes fists of Spirit into the AS and still them. It's raw unskilled massive power and it severs them.
Fists of Spirit imply precision and skill to me, not raw power.
No one can make a gateway as large as Rand in the series. 4x4 is the maximum for any single channeler. And how do you know 'who is in the know'? What's wrong with Logain's judgment of saidin?
Hate to bring this up.. but no:
“Yes,” he continued. “Traveling requires great strength in the One Power, but I can make large gateways. Before this all went wrong, the largest I ever made was a gateway thirty feet across.”
Pevara blinked. “Surely you’re exaggerating.”
One pace is 3 feet, so Rand's are 12 feet by 12 feet, much smaller than Androl's. Again, hate to bring this up, grain of salt, and all that.
I've never said it's linear. Most Aes Sedai have about 50 strength and can't make a gateway bigger than a small hole to put their arms through. But if someone makes a big gateway you know they're strong in the Power - Logain himself says so. It's no coincidence that Sammael and Osang'ar make smaller gateways than Rand.
It can only track within the channeler. I'm saying you can't use it reliably to compare channelers. Androl alone should be proof of that, as should Aviendha. As should Rand's retaining the same size as he grew in strength (or used an angreal).
So RJ put that in to show how ignorant Logain is. In all likelihood, he was answering a question that was asked to him dozens of times by readers and his resultant RAFO became something tangible.
Except he already answered the question in tFoH!
Androl has never exceeded Rand's gateway sizes unaided.
He does.
That makes no sense, especially in Sammael's case where he needed to transfer thousands of Shaido. He's not exactly the patient type.
Uhhh... you do know he tied off those gateways and had them dissipate soon so only a few would reach all the different places, right? The only Gateway he left open was the one for Sevanna, and we don't get any size for that. We only get Shaidar Haran come soon after, and say there were 3 Gateways he could sense, and there was at least one of saidar. We don't know what the sizes were. Was Sammael keeping his the same size as Graendal's to not have anyone suspicious about the different sizes? Was even Graendal making the largest she could, given that the point wasn't to cleanly let each sept make it fully, but to just let random numbers reach random places to increase chaos?
Also, mind telling me where we see the size for Osan'gar's gateway? The only instance we do it is said the Gateway was square, and its height was "greater than a man on a horse", which can be anything.
If you grow in strength your gateways get larger - therefore strength equals gateway size.
Not true. When you grow in strength, your Talent remains the same. Someone with greater Talent, but similar strength, might get even larger Gateways than you for the same increase in strength.
If someone opens a very large gateway in front of you, you will know it's a high level channeler, or maybe keep in the back of your mind that there is a 1 in 1000 chance that it's someone like Androl who isn't very strong at all.
Or that it is a moderate strength channeler with a pretty high chance for having a higher than average, but still less than Androl, level of Talent. Why do you think it can only be one extreme or the other?
I've never claimed that you need to use all of your ability to weave your largest gateway. I said the exact opposite in my original post. Aviendha is struggling because she is trying to relearn a weave and it's difficult.
Then what the heck is setting Gateway size? Rand and Asmodean say it has nothing to do with the OP, and is a "dream of a dream". This tracks well with the connection between entering TAR and Traveling that we learn of from Egwene.
It's likely that people who need more OP to make their largest gateways struggle with Spirit (or Fire in Men). Considering Rand is strong in all the Powers, it's likely he got to 4x4 early on, and couldn't improve on that.
Weakness in the Flows can certainly be a factor, but why not level of Talent?
Remember that Rand once chose a group of AM based on their ability to weave a gateway. He said that they all had to be strong enough to weave a gateway. It's likely then that 99% of channelers have an average Talent and above level 17 the size becomes linear up to ++1 where it's 4x4.
That makes zero sense. Why would frigging 99% have only average Talent? Something so far from a normal distribution would have a major reason behind it.
Rand's choice is still good with a normal distribution. The majority of channelers will have an average level of Talent, and with that you need good strength above Average to make a large Gateway.If someone he picks does have a more than average Talent and lower strength, that person is still useful.
More, Rand DOESN'T use Gateway size to judge strength:
After a glance to him, the Asha’man followed, drawing deeply on the True Source as they went, as much as they could hold.
Because of that, he could feel their strength as they passed him. Without that, it took some effort to tell a man could channel, longer still unless he cooperated. None were near as strong as he. Not yet, anyway; there was no saying how strong a man would be until he stopped growing stronger. Fedwin stood highest of the three, but he had what Taim called a bar. Fedwin did not really believe he could affect anything at a distance with the Power. The result was that at fifty paces his ability began to fade, and at a hundred he could not weave even a thread of saidin. Men gained strength faster than women, it seemed, and a good thing. These three were all strong enough to make a gateway of useful size, if just barely in Jonan’s case. Every Asha’man was that he had kept.
Because of that, he could feel their strength as they passed him. Without that, it took some effort to tell a man could channel, longer still unless he cooperated. None were near as strong as he. Not yet, anyway; there was no saying how strong a man would be until he stopped growing stronger. Fedwin stood highest of the three, but he had what Taim called a bar. Fedwin did not really believe he could affect anything at a distance with the Power. The result was that at fifty paces his ability began to fade, and at a hundred he could not weave even a thread of saidin. Men gained strength faster than women, it seemed, and a good thing. These three were all strong enough to make a gateway of useful size, if just barely in Jonan’s case. Every Asha’man was that he had kept.
So the only way Rand can tell how strong an Asha'man is is if the man is filled to bursting with the OP. If what you said about a linear relationship between OP potential and Gateway size is true, shouldn't Rand have already known who was strongest and who the weakest? He has clearly seen their largest Gateways, but he doesn't make any assumptions of exact strength based on that. Instead, he senses them based on how much they hold when he knows they're holding as much as they can, and only then does he assess them.
She'll use less saidar, obviously. If Nynaeve has a strength of 96 (or whatever) then she needs 65 to make a good sized gateway. She can probably make her biggest gateway with 75. As an example.
But, per Rand, there's a limit to that. If she goes from 75 to 96, she won't increase her Gateway size, for example. So once again, it seems actual strength has not much to do with the maximum sized Gateway you can make.
Well he's probably as strong as Sorilea and can make gateways that are as big as the Forsaken, so yes he's an extreme outlier like Berowin. It's rare enough to surprise people. The books even say that the guys at the BT can't believe it.
Yes, but you're saying he has an incredible amount of Talent, but there's nothing between him and someone with average Talent. That seems just stupid to me.
Are we saying Berowin is great with Shields, but everyone else is average? Or that there are gradations?
I told you that Rand made 4x4 and both Sammael and Osangar made slightly smaller gateways, and they're at ++2/++3. It's not a coincidence. There's then Logain who says that Rand must be stronger than him because his gateways are bigger. That is direct evidence from the books that you are choosing to ignore. We see in the same scene that the other AM have smaller deathgates than Rand.
Yet, no proof that Rand's Gateway Talent is average. Didn't Asmodean once say Rand stopping a Gateway from closing was something few could replicate, and doesn't that indicate he may be better with Gateways than the average?
I'm not saying what I want. I'm saying what is in the books, which is that Gateway size isn't strictly dependent on the amount of OP you put into it.
Well that's good because I never claimed that.
Not necessarily - it may be, but it also may be instinct. Nynaeve was weaving extremely complex weaves of Healing without any training or knowledge.
Because she had extraordinary levels of Talent. Unless you think there's a Talent for making chairs dance...
Well sometimes. When Rand breaks free from the AS he smashes fists of Spirit into the AS and still them. It's raw unskilled massive power and it severs them.
Fists of Spirit imply precision and skill to me, not raw power.