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Re: Splitting flows: the Great Aes Sedai mixup Sidious Send a noteboard - 22/12/2015 06:05:02 AM


People moronically assumed Gateway size had to do with OP strength due to Logain's and Pevara's comments, even though there are direct quotes proving otherwise:

Well those are direct quotes too. How about a new tactic where you don't call people moronic for recognizing verifiable quotes in the series? Logain has been at the BT - he knows that gateways size is linked to strength, which it is. This was a theory that was put into place for most of the series, and confirmed by Logain. It's also not like Logain was beaten to death by everyone around him when he made this 'moronic' statement. It's clearly true.

We have seen that Rand is the strongest channeler in the series and he can also make the biggest gateways at 4x4. Then there are channelers who are slightly weaker than him like Sammael and Osan'gar who have smaller gateways. Not only this but Rand himself has used gateways size to see how his Ash'aman are growing in strength.

Considering Asmodean thinks that two women together equal a man, I think we can take much of what he says with a pinch of salt. That said, it seem like gateway size is linked to your strength in the Power, but not the amount of saidin/saidar you put into it. Your mind probably grows in strength as you grow with the Power, and this allows you to handle it without burning yourself out - and so it's probably this factor that determines gateway size. It's likely that Rand puts in as much strength to make a gateway as an Aes Sedai does to make hers, but his strength in the Power passively allows the size. I'm pretty sure that the ++1's can all equal this and that the ++2's are a little smaller etc.

Then there are also factors like strength in Spirit and even Fire in men, as well as the Travelling Talent that Androl has. Androl is rare enough that he draws looks from people because he is so weak in the Power and yet he can Travel, meaning that in general he defies a trend that everyone uses.

So say what you want, but the high strength channelers can make big gateways, the average ones smaller gateways, and the weak ones no gateways.


Similarly, we see Mylen do three shields, and we see Egwene weave twelve gigantic columns of fire.

It seems like splitting flows doesn't split strength, which is really strange if you think about it. One should be careful though - Egwene is never a good example of anything. She's one of those extremely rare channelers who is strong in all the five flows and also has multiple gifts and Talents.


With shielding itself, what this means is clear: just because you can shield two women of strength X doesn't mean you can shield one woman of strength 2X. Especially when said women weren't even already holding the Source.

Well indeed, and it seems like Rand could probably hold 14 weak Aes Sedai, but maybe not seven stronger ones.


It is also clear that the Aes Sedai have a misguided idea of splitting flows, as we can see from the Companion

I would agree with this because kids who are taught to be skilled often retain that skill into childhood, but adults often struggle to pick up new skills. I know people who have taught their kids three languages as infants and this would be very difficult for someone of our age. It's almost like you have to fix this into your developing channeling brain while you have the chance.


With so many exclaiming over their strength—everyone said she and Elayne would be among the strongest Aes Sedai, if not the strongest, in a thousand years or more—she had assumed they were as strong as he. Near to it, at least. She had just been rudely disabused. Perhaps Nynaeve could come close, if she was angry enough, but Egwene knew she herself could never have done what he just had, split her flows that many ways, worked that many things at once. Working two flows at once was far more than twice as hard as working one of the same magnitude, and working three much more than twice again working two. He had to have been weaving a dozen. He did not even look tired, yet exertion with the Power took energy.

Rand was also completely untrained, and not only that but his weaves were highly skilled. He melted metal and knitted it into chain mail, and did all sorts of other things. It was a clear demonstration of multiple strengths and gifts that he wasn't aware of. He didn't even know how to shield a woman at that stage and yet he did.


See, Egwene assumes that because it takes more effort to do two things at once, and so on, it must be a matter of strength to match what Rand did. But she herself is proof that isn't true. And if we need more, the Companion says Aviendha could perhaps weave as many flows at once as Nynaeve, but less than Elayne. Egwene seems to be off the charts for this comparison.

Flow splitting is likely a combination of several abilities and strengths, though the precise formula is unclear. Why can Aviendha not equal Elayne? I think perhaps one could practice but I have strong doubts that everyone could be as adept as Egwene or Rand.


Do we really believe that the difference in strength between Siuan's original level (13) and Egwene's ( 8 ) is enough to shield someone of Shalon's strength AND boost how high Egwene could lift them? No way in hell.

With what you and Darius have half proved is that perhaps her full strength is present in all her flows. Flow splitting seems to not split strength.


With an effort she hoisted them higher, some ten or twelve paces above the surface; no matter how hard she strained, that seemed to be the limit.

This is likely similar to Rand's statement than an Air bridge has limits. I doubt using a sa'angreal would improve on this.


The conclusion is obvious: holding a shield on someone isn't very hard.

As long as you aren't too much weaker than them.


And more importantly, if you trained yourself early enough, you can do insanely impressive things while holding shields on someone. Heck, even when dueling to shield someone as strong as herself, Nynaeve splits her flows at least 3 other ways, and likely 4, from what we see from her lesson to the Sea Folk in Winter's Heart. Talaan herself splits her flows six other ways.

Yes you probably have to establish this early on as a channeler. Once you believe that it's difficult the neural pathways set in and it really does become difficult.


To me that shows that even there you don't have to use all your strength. Heck, the shields Nynaeve and Moghedien threw at each other wasn't their only weave either. They both had to make another to block each other's shields. What does that say? To shield someone exactly as strong as you, but already holding all of the OP they can, you needn't use all your strength.

This is likely true, but considering the risky nature of shielding, I think channelers try to increase the odds of success. Rand says that shielding a woman doesn't take 'mere trifles' of the Power, so clearly you have to make a weave of reasonable strength. I'm also a strong believe in precision weaving and that if you get a shield to have nice sharp edges you can not only shield someone, but sever them at the same time, as we saw with Moghedien/Nynaeve.

Remember also that Logain split his flows into a gateway and a shield, and Demandred considered the shield to be the bigger threat and went for it. We know that this shield was at best as strong as Demandred was but even the Forsaken knows that if this weave gets through by chance he's toast.



How much less do you need when someone isn't already holding the Source?

Well technically to shield them you need to only place the weakest weave in the world on them. It's when they fight back against the barrier that you're truly tested.
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