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My response to your thoughts... - Edit 2

Before modification by Shannow at 20/12/2015 07:20:34 PM


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To Sid, in short, no, you can't make sense of the Companion's figures because it contradicts so much in the books. The Companion in general is poorly written, and has been torn apart by many knowledgeable fans of the series. And this stretches far beyond the One Power content.

But I've just shown you that it works. Did you read me theory or did you just skim it?


Just a small list of contradictions with RJ's work, from memory:

This is the major problem from your reply. You are becoming sloppy because you are arguing from memory instead of doing proper research.


Aviendha says Egwene is as strong as Amys and Melaine combined. Clearly a vast contradiction of the Companion's attempt to hash together a strength list.

You see, this is incorrect, she does not say this.

TFOH (Among the Wise Ones) - “You are Aes Sedai, and strong enough in the Power to overcome Amys and Melaine together,” Aviendha continued …

She states that Egwene is strong enough to defeat both of those women at the same time. There is no evidence that Egwene is greater than them in sum power.


Cadsuane is stated to be weaker than the wondergirls in the books - again, clearly contradicts the Companion.

Indeed they did make a mistake here, but there are two strengths for her in the Companion. One is the correct one, the other one states that she is stronger than the girls, and we know that this is not true.


Siuan is less than half her former strength after being Healed - this is stated by Leane herself in the books. Again, this clearly contradicts the Companion's so called strength list.

I also believe this to be a mistake in the Companion. It's really minor. I even think that Moiraine's new strength is wrong - I picked up a quote that disagreed with it.


Further information from the books that discount this, is the fact that Rand can break free from a shield held by 3 sisters
- and Logain could possibly break free from a shield held by 5. Contrary to Sid's theory, a man can not in fact break free from a female shield that exceeds 100% of his strength. In fact, he cannot even break free from a shield that is less than 100% of his strength.

But we know this isn't true.

Robert Jordan (October 24 1998 ) -

Q. Why did Elayne think that even the Forsaken could not break a shield held by Vandene and Adeleas?

A. The answer is that holding a shield on someone doesn't only depend on relative strength and fatigue, it also depends on whether the shield is held by channelers of the same sex as the victim. Thus two women can hold another woman but three will get severed if they try to hold Rand.

We know that two women can hold any woman. Therefore if we follow your theory that the Forsaken are so strong then you are potentially claiming that you can hold a shield on someone who is multiple times stronger than you. After all if Semirhage is at 100 and two women are at ?40 then this is what you are claiming. But we know that this isn't true because Galina says that Micara isn't truly weak in the Power and she could easily break her shield. Therefore it stands to reason that two average women are in the vicinity of Lanfear when combined in a circle, and can thus hold anyone.


We know this because according to the Companion itself, Logain exceeds Nynaeve's strength, and yet he could not break free from her shield on him.

Because he wasn't trying. We know this because Siuan says that he pretended not to have been Healed until he knew that the deal was up. Nynaeve knew that her shield was on the verge of breaking. She desperately asked the women to link and help her.

LOC (To Heal Again) … ”I went by Logain’s house. Six sisters are maintaining his shield, the same as when he was captured. He tried to break free when he knew we found out he had been Healed, and they said that if only five had been holding the shield, he might have. So he’s as strong as he ever was, or close enough to make no difference.”


The fact that 6 sisters could not defeat a False Dragon on at least two occasions in the past, further emphasises the vast gulf between a Tier 1 or 2 channeler, and the average Aes Sedai.

I addressed this in my theory - that channelers can face up to 3x their strength, this is why these women died. Egwene herself thought she could take on five Aes Sedai if she was quick.


The idea that Egwene is at 80% of Lanfear's strength does not fit at all with the books.

It does, but not into your idea of the Power. I admit that I would have liked your version better but it's not like we have a choice. In fact, Egwene is almost at 90. RJ said there was a true bell curve long before he died.


Just like it is reaching in the extreme to theorize that when Egwene talks about matching a Forsaken, she is talking about being able to overwhelm that Forsaken with 200% of his or her strength. No, Egwene is talking about overwhelming the actual strength of that Forsaken. Just like Nynaeve defeated Moghedien strength for strength.

If Egwene thinks that then she is a true fool. We know that Alivia actually exceeded Cyndane in strength in the Power, and she needed a heavy multiplier and was still severely injured. By conservative estimates Alivia was 2.2 times stronger than Cyndane. What makes you think that a circle equal in strength to Aran'gar or Cyndane would then have a chance?


This is confirmed by the fact that Egwene speaks about Nynaeve alone in the same way as she speaks about her, Romanda and Lelaine being able to face a male Forsaken. She says that no Aes Sedai except Nynaeve could match Moghedien. There is no reason to believe that she is referring to herself, Romanda and Lelaine being able to match a male Forsaken in any other way than how Nynaeve faced Moghedien.

Let me ask you this... if the Forsaken are many times stronger than average channelers then why did Lanfear, Graendal and Rahvin want to form a circle to take Rand? Seems a bit like overkill. It would be the equivalent of 15-30 Aes Sedai, depending on what you believe. The truth is that channelers can fight off far greater amounts than their raw strength - we know this conclusively from the Alivia/Cyndane battle. Egwene knows this, which is why she thinks that she wouldn't be able to overwhelm a Forsaken even in a ring.

I also think that Nynaeve would be dead meat alone against any of the Forsaken. She and Moghedien surprised each other in close quarters and got locked in a grip. Nynaeve herself says that Alivia could overpower her no matter what she did. I'd hate to see what Semirhage or Cyndane could do to her.

From your other post...


Let's take Sid's theory of Egwene, Romanda and Lelaine being able to overwhelm a male Forsaken. This is contradicted by Rand himself, who says that 3 women would each have to be of Semirhage or Mesaana's strength to cut him off from the Source once he holds on to it.

What does it contradict? Egwene has strong doubts as to whether she will succeed even if she finds herself in such a circle.

Rand actually has two quotes...

The first one... LOC (Gifts) - In the mirror his head tilted as if he was listening, and he nodded, voice dropping to a murmur. “Yes, I can handle three, if they aren’t too strong… Of course, if one of them is Moghedien in a wig, or Semirhage, I may be in trouble.”

The second one... LOC (The Taking) - That shield made his eyes bulge, it was impossible. No three women could block him from the Source once he had taken hold of saidin, not unless they were as strong as Semirhage or Mesanna … Rand felt the blood drain from his face. Four sets of eyes in four ageless faces examined him.

Rand says that he can handle/fight off three women if they aren't too strong but if ONE is Forsaken strength it will be difficult. This ties in excellently with Egwene whose suggested circle falls short of this.

His second quote says that ALL of the three must be Forsaken strength to cut his connection to saidin. The most revealing aspect of this quote is actually right at the end - Rand goes pale when he sees a 4th woman. Therefore the difference between 3x Forsaken women and 4x non-Forsaken women isn't that big. If the gap was big you'd think that it would take many more women to shield him, but clearly LTT knows that 4 lesser women are enough.


The list goes on and I have grown kind of bored by this, after the Companion more than proved that its contributors had very little insight into RJ's true understanding of the One Power.

In short, they botched it. And badly so.


You have to accept that the Power isn't what you expected. You should also accept that even RJ hadn't solidified many things in the series. You were more than happy to hear that Taim was written as Demandred for half the series, even though RJ changed his mind. That is definitely botched, and the Power is no different. I think RJ started out making the FS and Nynaeve impossibly strong but he changed his mind around TFOH.


A few issues to cover, so I will number them to keep track, and hopefully cover all the ground I wished to. Let's start with:

  1. The Aviendha quote

This is a rather interesting point.

If you say that being able to "overcome" Amys and Melaine combined is different from being as strong as the two combined, then it seems pretty clear that the ability to DO things with the Power does not increase in linear fashion as one goes up the list. In other words, while the strength list may be linear, this quote makes it rather obvious that one's actual capability to affect the physical world increases in some different formula to your strength on the linear list. Maybe it is cubic, for example. Much like the Warp Drive scale in Star Trek.


Warp 8 = 8x8x8= 512 times the speed of light, while Warp 9 =9x9x9= 729 times the speed of light. So while the scale is linear in its distribution, its actual physical impact is cubic.

Similarly, the if, based on Egwene's strength only, Aviendha assesses her as capable of overcoming two powerful channelers together, despite only being 11% or so stronger than Amys, that tells us that One Power feats do not increase linearly with strength on the strength scale. But more on this later.

  1. The Siuan issue

Siuan's strength is actually critical to the integrity of the entire strength scale. Since we know that she was signficantly below half her strength after being Healed from stilling, a placing of her at almost 60% of her former strength throws out the linear nature of the list completely.

It is clear that RJ intended her to be lower than half her former strength, based on the direct quote he placed in the books. The fact that the authors of the Companion got her placing at almost 60% of her former strength directly from the so called notes, calls into question the integrity of all the notes.

Clearly the notes were compiled over a long period of time. Some were updated in recent years, others he clearly never bothered to get back to, as he may have had new levels for other channelers in his mind to compensate for the changes he did make in the notes.

So in short, we don't know if the changes he made to the list was complete, and whether he meant to still get around to changing everyone else after placing say Siuan at a higher level than he indicated in the books. And whether he didn't even bother updating any of the Forsaken as he knew in his own mind what their new levels were, etc.

The point is, why ignore the entries for some channelers - which are clearly inaccurate - while relying on others? The whole list is suspect.

  1. Logain's strength and the gender of shielders

Here we have a real dillemma for the Companion. It is the Aes Sedai themselves who state that Logain might have been able to break free if only 5 of them were holding the shield. They know this because they directly felt the pressure he was exerting when trying to break free from 6. So clearly, Logain's strength comes very close to being able to break free from 5 Aes Sedai.

Now, it is interesting that you assert that Shielding someone of the opposite sex is much more difficult, (which we know of course), without extending the same allowance when it is males shielding females.

And we have a very good example of just such a situation. I am talking, of course, about when Rand shields both Egwene and Elayne at the same time, while weaving about 10 additional weaves simultaneously.

So according to the sortable list based on the Companion itself, Egwene was supposedly a level 12 at this time, while Elayne was a level 35. Let me start by saying that I question these low ratings for both women at the time, as Egwene appeared significantly stronger than Moiraine even then, having been forced by the Seanchan, so placing her at level 12 is an absolute minimum and frankly, inaccurate in my view.

Similarly Elayne, who is suggested to have gone from a paltry level 35 to a level 17 between the start and end of Shadow Rising. That is a whopping 58% increase in one book, despite no forcing taking place. That is not how female strength increases. Instead, it increases gradually, not in jumps.

Nevertheless, even though I disagree with the low estimates for Egwene and Elayne at the start of tSR, I will go with it, to illustrate the inconsistency of the way inter-gender shielding is treated in your approach. So with Egwene and Elayne at levels 12 and 35 respetively, that places them, according to the linear list, at 82% at 47% of the maximum strength respectively.

Together, that makes them 129% as strong as Lanfear at that point in time. So I ask you, if it is much more difficult to shield someone of the opposite sex, as Jordan has indeed stated, then how is it possible for Rand to hold shields on TWO females at the same time, who have a combined strength significantly in excess of his own? This while still managing 10 additional weaves at the same time?

To make matters worse, this is not Rand at Lews Therin's strength level. This is a Rand who only by the end of tSR mathches Asmodean, who is a level 3. So if everyone else is growing so rapidly during the course of tSR, then Rand, who is channeling constantly during that book, likely did quite a bit of growing himself before facing Asmodean. Therefore, at the time when he manhandled Egwene and Elayne, he was likely a couple of levels lower than that. Probably a level 5 or thereabouts. Remember, this is when he cannot even grasp the Source every time he tries to. Something that even Elayne can do consistently at that point in time.

So I come back to the point, which is that if 5 female Aes Sedai need to significantly exceed the strength of a male to hold a shield on him, then the same must apply to a male who tries to hold a shield on a female, let along on two females. In fact, Egwene on her own, at level 12, would have been at 81% of Lanfear's strength at the time. Therefore she would have been at an even higher proportion of Rand's untrained strength at that time, according to the Companion that is. He should not even have been able to hold a shield on her alone, going by the inter-gender shielding difficulty theory, let alone be able to shield Elayne and handle 10 other weaves as well.

The only way this can make sense, is if Egwene is not that close to Rand's level in strength, and is in fact below half his strength at the time.

  1. Egwene's strength compared to a male Forsaken

This point ended up being addressed by my above post, but clearly, the Companion has a major problem here, if it is to remain consistent with the books.

  1. The gender of people holding shields

This point too was addressed under point 3 above. To be clear, I don't have a problem with the idea that it is more difficult to shield people of the opposite sex. It has in fact long been known. Ever since RJ's own quote on the matter, which you kindly referenced again in your post. But as is shown in Rand's interaction with Egwene and Elayne, this actually strengthens the case for the top Tier Forsaken level to be farther removed from Egwene's level.

  1. The plan for Rahvin, Graendal and Lanfear to take Rand together.

This is explained nicely by the fact that, as Rand stated, to cut him off once he already holds the Source, you need to exceed at least 200% of his strength. Two Forsaken together could not do it. But 3 could. And they obviously wanted to be sure of being able to do so.

This ties in with Asmodean's quote, that 13 Daigian's should be able to do so to Rand too. To be fair, Daigian is exceptionally weak for an Aes Sedai, and given Asmodean's limited knowledge of exact Aes Sedai strengths, he might well have been talking about women slightly stronger than Daigian. But even if we use Daigian, for the sake of argument, then 13 Daigians need to exceed around 200% of Rand's strength. Meaning each one needs to be around 15% as strong as Rand.

Since Moiraine and Elaida, according to the Companion itself are around 2.57 times Daigian's strenth (baced up by Leane's quote that she was less than half her former strength, but still stronger than Daigian), that would place Moiraine and Elaida at around 40% of Rand's strength, with the average Aes Sedai at around 30%. If we then take Aviendha's quote regarding Amys and Melaine as a slight exxageration (which is different from discouting it entirely, as the Companion does) Egwene at around 50% stronger than Moiraine makes sense. Placing Egwene at 60% of Rand's strength.

7.

To conclude, I can accept an explanation that at the time of tSR Jorand intended a greater gap between the Forsaken and other channelers, and that this changed over time. But this change could not have happened before Winter's Heart, given all the evidence that continued to support this picture up to that point.

Even Demandred's encounter at the Cleansing only makes sense if the two Aes Sedai and Flinn were each around 30% as strong as himself. While Lanfear noted that Alivia was stronger than herself, Demandred noted that the mixed circle led by Flinn hit his web as hard as his own spinning would. This was mixed gender circle, which increases effectiveness, and the implication was that it matched his own effective strength.

Anyway, the point is that the Companion's list does not match actual events and quotes in three quarters of the series. And we know most of the last quarter was written by Sanderson, supported by team Jordan who did not understand much of what was in Jordan's head. Especially surrounding the One Power.

I'm sure I missed the odd point, which I would be happy to get back to should you wish me to. But the above has turned into a long post in itself, and I find that the more points and quotes one tries to cover in a single post, the more the important stuff gets lost in the wash, while people focus on peripheral quotes that are more ambiguous. Such as the Demandred-Flinn circle encounter, which is more ambiguous than Rand's shielding of Egwene and Elayne, which is clear and indisputable.

I look forward to continuing this discussion, as I must admit having Sid back has woken some of the old juices from 10 or so years back, when we started this whole thing. Let's see if we can keep it going a tad longer.


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