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Some thoughts Sidious Send a noteboard - 20/12/2015 09:29:28 AM


To Sid, in short, no, you can't make sense of the Companion's figures because it contradicts so much in the books. The Companion in general is poorly written, and has been torn apart by many knowledgeable fans of the series. And this stretches far beyond the One Power content.

But I've just shown you that it works. Did you read me theory or did you just skim it?


Just a small list of contradictions with RJ's work, from memory:

This is the major problem from your reply. You are becoming sloppy because you are arguing from memory instead of doing proper research.


Aviendha says Egwene is as strong as Amys and Melaine combined. Clearly a vast contradiction of the Companion's attempt to hash together a strength list.

You see, this is incorrect, she does not say this.

TFOH (Among the Wise Ones) - “You are Aes Sedai, and strong enough in the Power to overcome Amys and Melaine together,” Aviendha continued …

She states that Egwene is strong enough to defeat both of those women at the same time. There is no evidence that Egwene is greater than them in sum power.


Cadsuane is stated to be weaker than the wondergirls in the books - again, clearly contradicts the Companion.

Indeed they did make a mistake here, but there are two strengths for her in the Companion. One is the correct one, the other one states that she is stronger than the girls, and we know that this is not true.


Siuan is less than half her former strength after being Healed - this is stated by Leane herself in the books. Again, this clearly contradicts the Companion's so called strength list.

I also believe this to be a mistake in the Companion. It's really minor. I even think that Moiraine's new strength is wrong - I picked up a quote that disagreed with it.


Further information from the books that discount this, is the fact that Rand can break free from a shield held by 3 sisters
- and Logain could possibly break free from a shield held by 5. Contrary to Sid's theory, a man can not in fact break free from a female shield that exceeds 100% of his strength. In fact, he cannot even break free from a shield that is less than 100% of his strength.

But we know this isn't true.

Robert Jordan (October 24 1998 ) -

Q. Why did Elayne think that even the Forsaken could not break a shield held by Vandene and Adeleas?

A. The answer is that holding a shield on someone doesn't only depend on relative strength and fatigue, it also depends on whether the shield is held by channelers of the same sex as the victim. Thus two women can hold another woman but three will get severed if they try to hold Rand.

We know that two women can hold any woman. Therefore if we follow your theory that the Forsaken are so strong then you are potentially claiming that you can hold a shield on someone who is multiple times stronger than you. After all if Semirhage is at 100 and two women are at ?40 then this is what you are claiming. But we know that this isn't true because Galina says that Micara isn't truly weak in the Power and she could easily break her shield. Therefore it stands to reason that two average women are in the vicinity of Lanfear when combined in a circle, and can thus hold anyone.


We know this because according to the Companion itself, Logain exceeds Nynaeve's strength, and yet he could not break free from her shield on him.

Because he wasn't trying. We know this because Siuan says that he pretended not to have been Healed until he knew that the deal was up. Nynaeve knew that her shield was on the verge of breaking. She desperately asked the women to link and help her.

LOC (To Heal Again) … ”I went by Logain’s house. Six sisters are maintaining his shield, the same as when he was captured. He tried to break free when he knew we found out he had been Healed, and they said that if only five had been holding the shield, he might have. So he’s as strong as he ever was, or close enough to make no difference.”


The fact that 6 sisters could not defeat a False Dragon on at least two occasions in the past, further emphasises the vast gulf between a Tier 1 or 2 channeler, and the average Aes Sedai.

I addressed this in my theory - that channelers can face up to 3x their strength, this is why these women died. Egwene herself thought she could take on five Aes Sedai if she was quick.


The idea that Egwene is at 80% of Lanfear's strength does not fit at all with the books.

It does, but not into your idea of the Power. I admit that I would have liked your version better but it's not like we have a choice. In fact, Egwene is almost at 90. RJ said there was a true bell curve long before he died.


Just like it is reaching in the extreme to theorize that when Egwene talks about matching a Forsaken, she is talking about being able to overwhelm that Forsaken with 200% of his or her strength. No, Egwene is talking about overwhelming the actual strength of that Forsaken. Just like Nynaeve defeated Moghedien strength for strength.

If Egwene thinks that then she is a true fool. We know that Alivia actually exceeded Cyndane in strength in the Power, and she needed a heavy multiplier and was still severely injured. By conservative estimates Alivia was 2.2 times stronger than Cyndane. What makes you think that a circle equal in strength to Aran'gar or Cyndane would then have a chance?


This is confirmed by the fact that Egwene speaks about Nynaeve alone in the same way as she speaks about her, Romanda and Lelaine being able to face a male Forsaken. She says that no Aes Sedai except Nynaeve could match Moghedien. There is no reason to believe that she is referring to herself, Romanda and Lelaine being able to match a male Forsaken in any other way than how Nynaeve faced Moghedien.

Let me ask you this... if the Forsaken are many times stronger than average channelers then why did Lanfear, Graendal and Rahvin want to form a circle to take Rand? Seems a bit like overkill. It would be the equivalent of 15-30 Aes Sedai, depending on what you believe. The truth is that channelers can fight off far greater amounts than their raw strength - we know this conclusively from the Alivia/Cyndane battle. Egwene knows this, which is why she thinks that she wouldn't be able to overwhelm a Forsaken even in a ring.

I also think that Nynaeve would be dead meat alone against any of the Forsaken. She and Moghedien surprised each other in close quarters and got locked in a grip. Nynaeve herself says that Alivia could overpower her no matter what she did. I'd hate to see what Semirhage or Cyndane could do to her.

From your other post...


Let's take Sid's theory of Egwene, Romanda and Lelaine being able to overwhelm a male Forsaken. This is contradicted by Rand himself, who says that 3 women would each have to be of Semirhage or Mesaana's strength to cut him off from the Source once he holds on to it.

What does it contradict? Egwene has strong doubts as to whether she will succeed even if she finds herself in such a circle.

Rand actually has two quotes...

The first one... LOC (Gifts) - In the mirror his head tilted as if he was listening, and he nodded, voice dropping to a murmur. “Yes, I can handle three, if they aren’t too strong… Of course, if one of them is Moghedien in a wig, or Semirhage, I may be in trouble.”

The second one... LOC (The Taking) - That shield made his eyes bulge, it was impossible. No three women could block him from the Source once he had taken hold of saidin, not unless they were as strong as Semirhage or Mesanna … Rand felt the blood drain from his face. Four sets of eyes in four ageless faces examined him.

Rand says that he can handle/fight off three women if they aren't too strong but if ONE is Forsaken strength it will be difficult. This ties in excellently with Egwene whose suggested circle falls short of this.

His second quote says that ALL of the three must be Forsaken strength to cut his connection to saidin. The most revealing aspect of this quote is actually right at the end - Rand goes pale when he sees a 4th woman. Therefore the difference between 3x Forsaken women and 4x non-Forsaken women isn't that big. If the gap was big you'd think that it would take many more women to shield him, but clearly LTT knows that 4 lesser women are enough.


The list goes on and I have grown kind of bored by this, after the Companion more than proved that its contributors had very little insight into RJ's true understanding of the One Power.

In short, they botched it. And badly so.


You have to accept that the Power isn't what you expected. You should also accept that even RJ hadn't solidified many things in the series. You were more than happy to hear that Taim was written as Demandred for half the series, even though RJ changed his mind. That is definitely botched, and the Power is no different. I think RJ started out making the FS and Nynaeve impossibly strong but he changed his mind around TFOH.

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Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 20/12/2015 at 01:06:01 PM
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