Active Users:1186 Time:22/11/2024 08:23:50 PM
mostly agree darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM

Fionwe, I see nothing in Dom's conclusions that outweigh the stated comments in the Companion about strength level to make a gateway. Especially because of the way the Gateway entry was worded in the Companion, specifically naming a MAN just before listing the minimum strength. There are too many nuances to the Power to make a blanket statement such as you insist upon. Starting with the fact that men and women Travel in different ways using different flows. It could be as simple as men don't need to be as strong to Travel.



It's likely that no Ash'aman is nearly as skilled as any Aes Sedai as the most senior of their member has channeled for less time than any novice. That said, AS don't know squat about saidin and vice versa... it's likely all the circles were completely inefficient at melding the two Powers.

I agree here ... Flinn was likely given charge of his circle because the others had little/no combat experience, despite having much more experience in the Power than he did. He's also shown that he's got a certain affinity with the Power (i.e. he discovered Healing Stilling). But my point was really about strength of the circles being higher than we previously assumed.


It proves nothing, and it's absurd to think that ALL the quotes on this issue are incorrect, especially from people who actually know how strong they all are. We know for a fact that the Companion doesn't know how strong Cadsuane is, and there are several other potential mess ups like Rahvin. I would go as far to say that the Companion should not be considered canon on several issues, as well as the last few books of the series. I think it's a very valid point stating that the original author had no part in the verification of these facts, and clearly many of them have been messed up. For instance, Graendal with her angreal fought a few average Aes Sedai and killed one, and yet she managed to hold her own in the Last Battle against an onslought that included Cadsuane AND Talaan, and without her angreal. It's completely absurd and BS did less than basic research into the OP before he wrote his part. There are many other OP errors (Taim can't be shielded by will alone, for instance) in the last few books, and his answers to fans have also made me cringe in the past. I'm sorry if it sounds bitter but I suspect you two both agree that RJ's legacy has been handled horribly since his death.

Cadsuane's angreal logically makes her a ++1. She could deflect the power of any attack that hit her, and there were at least two ++2's going for her.

It's likely that two AS fall well short of a ++1 - we have actually seen Rand squash two at the same time like flies while feeling dazed, and with shields no less. Lews Therin himself says that he can handle three women if they aren't too strong, and one must be Forsaken strength to make his life difficult. That is highly similar to Egwene's statement that she could not overwhelm a Forsaken linked to Romanda and Lelaine, considering all three of them are weaker than even Moghedien. We also know from Liandrin that it will take about three of them to smother Moghedien.

We know that Amys' strength is vague in the series - one quote placing her alongside Moiraine, the other alongside Sheriam. I see nothing ridiculous about Egwene being able to overwhelm the two if she has a strength of 80 and they are at 40-50 each.

We also know that everyone has horribly underestimated the skill of the Forsaken. Alivia is stronger than Cyndane in raw strength alone, and even with a strong angreal and many protective ter'angreal she barely escaped with her life. I have strong doubts whether we can make any conclusions from the Cleansing. We only had a glimpse of it - we know from RJ that Semirhage also fought some of the circles, for instance. It's possible that Semirhage killed Eben or Kumira - it's chaos that we witnessed through a keyhole. We also don't know how powerful these mixed circles are, but it seems like the amplification is substantial.


I would say that most of the strength listings in the Companion are probably directly from RJs notes, they mostly read like he was repeating a basic formula for each Aes Sedai he wanted to include ... nearly always including strength, place of birth, year born, year they went to the Tower, years as a Novice, years as an Accepted and the year she achieved the Shawl. There are a few that might be misstated or from an older scale (i.e. Rhavin died prior to the new scale being used so he may have never been "updated" to ++2 or ++3) I suspect Kumira is a typo and meant to be level 44 rather than 24 given that she was described as "barely stronger than Daigian" and as the weakest Aes Sedai, next to Daigian, with Cadsuane's entourage, yet we know that Rosara Medrano (level 32), Shahal Comanli (level 34) and Silvane Redfor (level 33) were all with the group and are clearly weaker than Kumira's stated strength of level 24.

I think most of the time the characters in a given scene are speaking somewhat correctly. However, I don't think any of the male/female strength comparisons are very accurate, based on lack of knowledge ... Egwene is certainly wrong in her estimate that with Romanda and Lelaine the wouldn't match a male Forsaken, and Moiraine would have only been correct in her estimation if, as is likely, Aviendha was well below her eventual strength of 11.

Seems to me that 2 level 17 or 18 women are probably in the range of a match for a ++1 male in terms of raw strength, but without a scale or knowing the difference between levels it's really impossible to say. but this does work if you assume a 72 point scale and about a 3% reduction in strength from each level. I know some of you will think that's insane, but given that level 19 is considered Strong for Aes Sedai and there are only 6 levels of Aes Sedai strength higher (with 20+ Aes Sedai levels below) this seems plausible.

None of this will ever work out perfectly, but you can put a little effort into this and come fairly close

Level 18 would be about a 36 on a 72 point scale, roughly 1/2 a ++1
Level 8 would be about 48 on this scale, which, if Aviendha was roughly Daigian's strength at the time of the quote about matching a Female Forsaken, would make she and Egwene roughly the same as a level 1 ... of course Aviendha was probably a bit stronger than that and it's possible Egwene was still below her potential at this time so maybe they were level 12 and level 35. Or perhaps Moiraine simply believed the Female Forsaken were as strong as the males since she had no real way of knowing how strong they were thus Aviendha could have been more like a level 20 with Egwene at 10-12 and it would still make some sense.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3239 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 956 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 940 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1079 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 983 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1071 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1083 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1272 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 930 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1070 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1112 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1042 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1123 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1080 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1228 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1187 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1199 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 995 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1233 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1065 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 927 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1201 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1059 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1149 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1213 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1004 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1135 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1005 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 941 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 953 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 966 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 992 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1042 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 944 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1173 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 972 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 923 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 953 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 596 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 988 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1023 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 933 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 963 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 943 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 648 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 965 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 936 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1134 Views
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Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1031 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1061 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1060 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 991 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1009 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1074 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 913 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 932 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1131 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 971 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1059 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1106 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 915 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 962 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 914 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 903 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 944 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 962 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1133 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1083 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1128 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1316 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 985 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1162 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 861 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 920 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 860 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 871 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1141 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 992 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1320 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 876 Views
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Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 943 Views
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Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 940 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 900 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 901 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 609 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 963 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 820 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 974 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 530 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 563 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 969 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 921 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 897 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 901 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 864 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 815 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 866 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 903 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 829 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 859 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 942 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 854 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 966 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1046 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 905 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 937 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 877 Views
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Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 877 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 918 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 909 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 878 Views
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Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 860 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 888 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 808 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 925 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 570 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 890 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 855 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 943 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 886 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 922 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 886 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 816 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 866 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 855 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 903 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 835 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1018 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 947 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1013 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 880 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 857 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 879 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1026 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 908 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 909 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1027 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1072 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1080 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 843 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 997 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 915 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 855 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 998 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 942 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 815 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 967 Views

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