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mostly agree darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM

Fionwe, I see nothing in Dom's conclusions that outweigh the stated comments in the Companion about strength level to make a gateway. Especially because of the way the Gateway entry was worded in the Companion, specifically naming a MAN just before listing the minimum strength. There are too many nuances to the Power to make a blanket statement such as you insist upon. Starting with the fact that men and women Travel in different ways using different flows. It could be as simple as men don't need to be as strong to Travel.



It's likely that no Ash'aman is nearly as skilled as any Aes Sedai as the most senior of their member has channeled for less time than any novice. That said, AS don't know squat about saidin and vice versa... it's likely all the circles were completely inefficient at melding the two Powers.

I agree here ... Flinn was likely given charge of his circle because the others had little/no combat experience, despite having much more experience in the Power than he did. He's also shown that he's got a certain affinity with the Power (i.e. he discovered Healing Stilling). But my point was really about strength of the circles being higher than we previously assumed.


It proves nothing, and it's absurd to think that ALL the quotes on this issue are incorrect, especially from people who actually know how strong they all are. We know for a fact that the Companion doesn't know how strong Cadsuane is, and there are several other potential mess ups like Rahvin. I would go as far to say that the Companion should not be considered canon on several issues, as well as the last few books of the series. I think it's a very valid point stating that the original author had no part in the verification of these facts, and clearly many of them have been messed up. For instance, Graendal with her angreal fought a few average Aes Sedai and killed one, and yet she managed to hold her own in the Last Battle against an onslought that included Cadsuane AND Talaan, and without her angreal. It's completely absurd and BS did less than basic research into the OP before he wrote his part. There are many other OP errors (Taim can't be shielded by will alone, for instance) in the last few books, and his answers to fans have also made me cringe in the past. I'm sorry if it sounds bitter but I suspect you two both agree that RJ's legacy has been handled horribly since his death.

Cadsuane's angreal logically makes her a ++1. She could deflect the power of any attack that hit her, and there were at least two ++2's going for her.

It's likely that two AS fall well short of a ++1 - we have actually seen Rand squash two at the same time like flies while feeling dazed, and with shields no less. Lews Therin himself says that he can handle three women if they aren't too strong, and one must be Forsaken strength to make his life difficult. That is highly similar to Egwene's statement that she could not overwhelm a Forsaken linked to Romanda and Lelaine, considering all three of them are weaker than even Moghedien. We also know from Liandrin that it will take about three of them to smother Moghedien.

We know that Amys' strength is vague in the series - one quote placing her alongside Moiraine, the other alongside Sheriam. I see nothing ridiculous about Egwene being able to overwhelm the two if she has a strength of 80 and they are at 40-50 each.

We also know that everyone has horribly underestimated the skill of the Forsaken. Alivia is stronger than Cyndane in raw strength alone, and even with a strong angreal and many protective ter'angreal she barely escaped with her life. I have strong doubts whether we can make any conclusions from the Cleansing. We only had a glimpse of it - we know from RJ that Semirhage also fought some of the circles, for instance. It's possible that Semirhage killed Eben or Kumira - it's chaos that we witnessed through a keyhole. We also don't know how powerful these mixed circles are, but it seems like the amplification is substantial.


I would say that most of the strength listings in the Companion are probably directly from RJs notes, they mostly read like he was repeating a basic formula for each Aes Sedai he wanted to include ... nearly always including strength, place of birth, year born, year they went to the Tower, years as a Novice, years as an Accepted and the year she achieved the Shawl. There are a few that might be misstated or from an older scale (i.e. Rhavin died prior to the new scale being used so he may have never been "updated" to ++2 or ++3) I suspect Kumira is a typo and meant to be level 44 rather than 24 given that she was described as "barely stronger than Daigian" and as the weakest Aes Sedai, next to Daigian, with Cadsuane's entourage, yet we know that Rosara Medrano (level 32), Shahal Comanli (level 34) and Silvane Redfor (level 33) were all with the group and are clearly weaker than Kumira's stated strength of level 24.

I think most of the time the characters in a given scene are speaking somewhat correctly. However, I don't think any of the male/female strength comparisons are very accurate, based on lack of knowledge ... Egwene is certainly wrong in her estimate that with Romanda and Lelaine the wouldn't match a male Forsaken, and Moiraine would have only been correct in her estimation if, as is likely, Aviendha was well below her eventual strength of 11.

Seems to me that 2 level 17 or 18 women are probably in the range of a match for a ++1 male in terms of raw strength, but without a scale or knowing the difference between levels it's really impossible to say. but this does work if you assume a 72 point scale and about a 3% reduction in strength from each level. I know some of you will think that's insane, but given that level 19 is considered Strong for Aes Sedai and there are only 6 levels of Aes Sedai strength higher (with 20+ Aes Sedai levels below) this seems plausible.

None of this will ever work out perfectly, but you can put a little effort into this and come fairly close

Level 18 would be about a 36 on a 72 point scale, roughly 1/2 a ++1
Level 8 would be about 48 on this scale, which, if Aviendha was roughly Daigian's strength at the time of the quote about matching a Female Forsaken, would make she and Egwene roughly the same as a level 1 ... of course Aviendha was probably a bit stronger than that and it's possible Egwene was still below her potential at this time so maybe they were level 12 and level 35. Or perhaps Moiraine simply believed the Female Forsaken were as strong as the males since she had no real way of knowing how strong they were thus Aviendha could have been more like a level 20 with Egwene at 10-12 and it would still make some sense.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3496 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1269 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1235 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1401 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1273 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1408 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1408 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1583 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1264 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1383 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1410 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1390 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1415 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1427 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1571 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1549 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1515 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1314 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1571 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1457 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1258 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1542 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1373 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1490 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1549 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1319 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1426 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1302 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1264 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1280 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1263 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1322 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1350 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1270 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1610 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1303 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1228 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1243 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 781 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1256 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1323 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1225 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1279 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1276 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 855 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1250 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1267 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1457 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1332 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1343 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1368 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1386 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1303 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1360 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1388 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1222 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1267 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1422 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1264 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1366 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1419 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1218 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1334 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1186 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1198 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1264 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1252 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1413 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1409 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1423 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1786 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1269 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1591 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1197 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1232 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1217 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1167 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1484 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1184 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1286 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1764 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1194 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1412 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1238 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1135 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1183 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1259 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1205 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1208 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 797 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1285 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1120 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1272 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 723 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 745 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1267 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1254 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1181 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1194 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1151 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1128 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1165 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1241 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1167 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1166 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1231 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1161 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1270 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1349 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1253 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1265 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1163 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1259 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1145 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1263 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1213 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1173 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1182 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1150 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1191 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1126 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1259 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 756 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1205 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1143 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1258 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1222 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1206 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1175 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1120 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1168 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1195 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1180 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1157 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1303 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1245 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1347 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1193 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1171 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1218 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1338 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1365 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1219 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1480 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1400 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1392 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1172 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1336 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1232 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1154 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1269 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1247 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1131 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1334 Views

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