Active Users:464 Time:13/12/2025 04:29:21 PM
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement Sidious Send a noteboard - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM

RJ certainly went out of his way to show us that Talents and personality traits go hand in hand ... doesn't really matter if it's driven by Talent or the other way around, the point is the author wrote it into nearly every character in one way or another. It's obvious he wanted us to see that there was a relationship between OP abilities/Talent and personalities.

But maybe RJ is wrong, and before the whole internet implodes remember that it is his philosophy, probably on life in general. Do you believe that your Talents in life have driven you? I'm a medical doctor and I can tell you that "I want to help people" is not the majority reason for doing medicine. If a woman has a Healing Talent then apparently she will want to Heal, but Moiraine's ability is pretty good and she never felt the desire to join the Yellows. Don't you think it's more likely that people come across what they are good at and decide for themselves if they want to invest in it? I like to travel the world... would I have a Talent like Androl that is secretly driving me? This is a serious claim against the free will, which RJ also cherishes.


I think it's pretty obvious that Semirhage had limited ability with weather in a broader scope here. What point of mentioning it in the context of weakness if she was still effective at it?

I'm saying it's all relative. She said she was an indifferent Tcheran player, and we know that Ishamael was a master. It depends who is saying what. If I wanted the weather manipulated I would not ask Semirhage out of the Forsaken, but she still might be better than the whole White Tower.


And why would she hate the very Talent that enabled her to "take her pleasures"? Without her high level Talent she would have been forced into much more mundane techniques, like Temaile was, to fulfill her sadism. What she did was a twisted reflection of Healing. According to RJ, IIRC, she was already far gone before the bore was even drilled.

Because Healing is helpful and she is not. From her own PoV she says that she could Heal anything and was whisked around the globe for such purposes. It was all about greatness and glory, and not the patient who was suddenly healthy. She's similar to Aginor in some ways. Surprise surprise...but Semirhage was evil long before the Bore was drilled.


Let's look at the other major strength channelers with NO Talents:

Asmodean
Sammael
Mesaana
Be'lal

30% of the Forsaken had no major or minor Talent and Lanfear shows only 1 as does Moghedien and Graendal. Maybe, Rhavin and Demandred might have a single Talent each, Compulsion and Traveling respectively, and Semihage might have had a second Talent with Traveling, but it's never 100% confirmed.


We don't know that, and yes I realise that since I made the claim I must prove positively that strong channelers have more Talents, but it's also about exposure. Sammael doesn't channel much around us, and neither did Be'lal, for instance. Lanfear on the other hand could have multiple Talents including Healing, Travelling and shields - we've seen her use all three, and she goes for shields first in combat against channelers of significant power.

Semirhage is a Healer and can block gateways. Demandred is probably strong in all the flows and has multiple powers like Egwene but he wasn't fleshed out. I always found Asmodean's ability to place Dragons on Couladin to be amazing, but perhaps it was a simple weave.


Ishamael uses the TP almost exclusively so nothing he does can be called a Talent of the OP.

True, but he used every flow against Rand in the Stone. He's not weak in anything.


I think you are conflating Skill with Talent to be honest.

Maybe, but maybe they're all more interlinked than you care to admit. According to you, someone can either be a ninja or a body builder - but the idea of having traits of both is unacceptable.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 12/12/2015 at 06:48:17 AM
Reply to message
Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3533 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1283 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1256 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1425 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1293 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1433 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1446 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1610 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1286 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1400 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1427 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1421 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1435 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1441 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1604 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1578 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1539 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1352 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1598 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1479 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1279 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1577 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1406 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1525 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1582 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1345 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1460 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1323 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1289 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1301 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1291 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1347 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1374 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1288 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1633 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1319 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1262 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1266 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 795 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1282 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1338 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1248 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1300 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1294 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 870 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1278 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1289 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1475 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1356 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1375 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1397 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1413 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1333 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1385 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1422 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1233 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1284 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1448 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1282 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1394 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1443 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1236 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1350 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1207 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1225 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1285 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1280 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1433 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1434 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1442 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1814 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1290 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1616 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1216 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1253 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1241 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1186 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1514 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1202 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1312 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1795 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1215 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1439 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1253 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1156 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1201 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1284 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1222 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1235 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 812 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1317 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1140 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1296 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 735 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 761 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1291 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1280 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1204 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1216 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1165 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1149 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1191 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1269 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1194 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1187 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1252 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1183 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1297 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1365 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1278 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1284 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1186 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1278 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1175 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1281 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1234 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1188 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1209 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1166 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1220 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1146 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1285 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 771 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1232 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1166 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1288 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1240 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1222 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1198 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1146 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1204 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1218 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1208 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1187 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1320 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1271 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1370 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1224 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1207 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1249 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1366 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1391 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1240 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1523 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1424 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1425 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1197 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1365 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1255 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1176 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1295 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1273 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1163 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1367 Views

Reply to Message