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Re: Some things to consider Sidious Send a noteboard - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM


It's based on every channeler stronger than Moiraine.
Every channeler? What particular Talents or skills have Terava, Someryn, Mesaana, Tamela, Viendre, Meilyn, Kerene and Edarra shown? We've spent a reasonable amount of time around some of these women. And I'm not saying they are devoid of skill or Talents, but what particular ones of theirs makes you say everyone above Moiraine is very skilled and has many Talents?

So out of the 37 people who are stronger than Moiraine you pick 8 who might not have Talents. Remember that they can all Travel, so you are already wrong about that whole list. So 20% of the people above Moiraine have no verifiable other Talent, and 80% do.



The fact that he was a Forsaken is some indication, no? The 13 that survived were the best, for the most part, with internal gradations. You don't get to be Forsaken if you have no skill.

The 13 were at a regional meeting, some of them were the best, others were not. But I get your point. There is no doubt that Aginor was highly useful to the Shadow.


Any of the Red Belted Kinswomen, Suana, Dagdara... need I keep on?

Oh yes, the list of women who can "Heal". The type that makes Moghedien giggle like a paint mixer, leaving the patient half dead for weeks afterwards.


And the major character thing isn't a cop out. Because if I were to restrict my sample to that, I can also claim that no one who is ugly can channel great amounts of the OP. Looking at just the same characters you are, can we conclude that either being a strong channeler makes you good looking, or only good looking people can channel large amounts of the OP.

Well I do have a problem with so many of the main characters being good looking, so thanks for mentioning it. There are a lot of very beautiful channelers and average looking ones, but very few ugly ones. Hesselam is almost the only truly ugly person of any kind in this series.


I'll match your meaningless caveat too. I see a trend, not a rule...

Sure, if you want to be mean, then by all means. Considering the OP affects aging and vitality so much it's a possibility I'm open to.


What is the connection to strength in the OP, here? First of all, only 9 sisters in the entire Rebel camp could make Cuendillar. If the majority were Yellow, the sample is still too small to make conclusions. But even ignoring that, who said these Yellows were strong in OP strength?

Strength in a flow, strength in the Power - it's all in the same vane because it's innate power without practice, as you claim. Anyway you have gone on about sample size before and you're right, but then we shouldn't discuss anything in the series. There are maybe a few thousand channelers and far fewer who we know about, we know jack about the Power with such a small sample.


The very best at making Cuendillar, Egwene and Leane, have little to no Healing ability. The Companion even says this outright:
Although Leane had fairly small ability with Healing, she seemed to have the greatest ability with metals after Egwene

So what point have you proven?


What point have you proven...? That not all channelers have all Talents? Congratulations, I'm sure that's a theory that no one has. Of course Leane is stronger than most women, and has a Talent, so there you go.


Precisely. The only thing that mattered was practice. Not some innate ability. Talent lets you skip the need for practice, but barring that, skill only comes from practice, not as a side benefit of being stronger in the OP.

So Nynaeve has not been useful as a channeler in this series with her minimal practice and training? Apart from Healing.



Only when the battle was restricted to a pure strength duel. She copied Egwene's weave against Amico, and Modhedien's weave to stop it. That's all. There was no extraordinary skill at play here.

I thought the Forsaken were extraordinary. Why didn't Alivia get into a "pure strength" duel with Cyndane?



This is both ludicrous and false. Cadsuane did not say "so you see and copy". Cadsuane says:

“So you watch,” she said to Alivia.


Then why does Cadsuane mention it? Does she think that Alivia walks beside her and doesn't see anything. How moronic is that of Cadsuane?


There is no indication that Cadsuane is surprised that someone who watches can copy a weave.

And yet Cadsuane refuses to teach Alivia and channels openly around her. By all indications she finds it unlikely that a wilder will be able to pick up on her weaves.


Uhh.. WHAT? Are you insane? Cyndane used her superior skill to not just match a woman much much stronger than her, she handily beat her. Alivia ended that fight with her hand broken and burned to the bone. Even if Alivia had held her own, it doesn't mean strength is "a type of skill". Because if Alivia had Cyndane's skill, she'd have finished her easily.

You're having a seizure instead of seeing it from the other side. Cyndane is highly powerful and skilled with saidar. Alivia is only strong. By using an angreal she can survive her encounter with Cyndane. Therefore a strength boost provided her with 'skill'. I agree that Cyndane would have died if Alivia had her skill, but how pointless is that assertion. That's like wishing that Nynaeve had Graendal's skill.


Even with a sa'angreal Egwene would be no better at Healing. They use angreal because you can use more of the OP that way, and also because you get less tired if strength comes from an angreal rather than yourself.

There is no evidence to back that up. People who have no Talent for travelling use an angreal and can then Travel. Access to greater levels of saidar may provide small bridges to augment weak Talents. We have seen Verin use an angreal to improve her chances with a form of Compulsion. I'm not saying that if Egwene used Vora's wand she would be Semirhage, because you and Darius always take my examples and put them to the extremes to make me look stupid, but maybe with it she could Heal more than a bruise. Samitsu can Heal as well as a full circle... more saidar, more ability, and also proof that if you cannot Heal you can link, and then suddenly you will have a Talent with Healing (and Travelling).


There's also memories leaking from Lews Therin, there, completely removing Rand as a reasonable candidate for this discussion.

Okay the LTT card... fine then.
Sorilea stiffened at the comment, but let it go. She rewove the ward against listening, then paused, and placed the globes of light in front of Semirhage’s eyes as well. Yes, she was weak in the Power, but she was a very quick learner.

I thought this was "standard" and easy among channelers?

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 12/12/2015 at 06:27:53 AM
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers darius_sedai - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3249 Views
Outstanding job Sidious - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 964 Views
Re: Outstanding job darius_sedai - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 951 Views
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Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength Sidious - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1081 Views
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Well maybe Sidious - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1058 Views
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Re: Well maybe Sidious - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1228 Views
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Re: close enough to not debate about it fionwe1987 - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 977 Views
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Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying fionwe1987 - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1052 Views
um, no darius_sedai - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 954 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. Cannoli - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1187 Views
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Re: Great job darius_sedai - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 953 Views
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Some more fionwe1987 - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1040 Views
Re: Some more darius_sedai - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1076 Views
Re: Some more fionwe1987 - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1072 Views
Re: Some more darius_sedai - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1001 Views
Re: Some more fionwe1987 - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1017 Views
Re: Some more darius_sedai - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1083 Views
Re: Some more Sidious - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 924 Views
You said this much better than I did darius_sedai - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 944 Views
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Re: Yes Sidious - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1070 Views
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Re: Yes Sidious - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 923 Views
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Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually Sidious - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 954 Views
seriously! darius_sedai - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 969 Views
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Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... fionwe1987 - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 873 Views
Re: Some questions darius_sedai - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 929 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ fionwe1987 - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 870 Views
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Re: Some questions DomA - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1156 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women darius_sedai - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 855 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength darius_sedai - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1001 Views
Sort of. Terez - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1332 Views
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Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series Sidious - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 952 Views
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Lifespan question (Spoiler) darius_sedai - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 879 Views
Moiraine... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 948 Views
That too is possible darius_sedai - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 909 Views
Some random trends/data points darius_sedai - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 914 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* fionwe1987 - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 611 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. darius_sedai - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 974 Views
Not sure she can channel, though fionwe1987 - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 833 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though darius_sedai - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 983 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* darius_sedai - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 532 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* darius_sedai - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 565 Views
so.... Sidious - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 980 Views
Nope... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 932 Views
Yes Sidious - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 906 Views
Some things to consider fionwe1987 - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 910 Views
Re: Some things to consider Sidious - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 873 Views
Re: Some things to consider fionwe1987 - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 823 Views
Re: Some things to consider Sidious - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 879 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled darius_sedai - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 915 Views
Re: Some things to consider fionwe1987 - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 837 Views
Re: Some things to consider Sidious - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 867 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually darius_sedai - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 954 Views
This is a flawed list Sidious - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 863 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible darius_sedai - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 977 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) darius_sedai - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1058 Views
Not really Sidious - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 914 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement darius_sedai - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 946 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement Sidious - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 885 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about darius_sedai - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 982 Views
Some quotes fionwe1987 - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 886 Views
Re: Some things to consider fionwe1987 - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 928 Views
Re: Some things to consider Sidious - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 919 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! darius_sedai - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 887 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! Sidious - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 897 Views
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Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road Sidious - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 897 Views
I'm actually perplexed fionwe1987 - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 818 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed Sidious - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 936 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* darius_sedai - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 575 Views
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Re: Yes and No DomA - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 953 Views
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Re: Me too honestly fionwe1987 - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 879 Views
Re: Me too honestly darius_sedai - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 867 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index Sidious - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 917 Views
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Explain Sidious - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 959 Views
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Re: Aran'gar Sidious - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 919 Views
mostly agree darius_sedai - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 921 Views
Re: Aran'gar fionwe1987 - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1038 Views
Re: Aran'gar Sidious - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1084 Views
We do have some additional clues darius_sedai - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1093 Views
additional thought darius_sedai - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 853 Views
Does she know that? fionwe1987 - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1008 Views
I'm speculating of course darius_sedai - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 925 Views
Strength by National origin darius_sedai - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 868 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! darius_sedai - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1009 Views
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Known... fionwe1987 - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 826 Views
Re: Known... darius_sedai - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 986 Views
If you want to use the file you might want to grab it now before the site shuts down *NM* darius_sedai - 18/09/2016 06:45:48 PM 496 Views
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