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yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM

which also leads me to believe RJ didn't really have a "scale" for dexterity and there's nothing to say it was a constant additive bonus for women (realistically this would mean there was only one scale for both men and women and totally negates the point of the ++ levels).

I personally don't care all that much about the "effectiveness" scale since it's clear that RJ didn't create one and didn't seem to really think about something like this beyond a few passing comments, he certainly never gave us enough information about two channelers to conclusively say "X was more effective than Y". We see no clear effectiveness difference between any of the Forsaken really, Graendal is weaker than all but Moghedien, yet had no problem believing she could kill Sammael a ++2 man, who in theory she would be less effective than.

The whole effectiveness conversation seems to only matter for the purposes of trying to back into an actual strength level for certain characters IMO. And I certainly don't think there is enough information to say there is a direct correlation to a ++3 man and a 3 woman or that a level 13 man could only be as effective as a level 19 woman and so forth ... at least not off of the information that they could both create a useable gateway. This can too easily be explained by superior Talent or stronger flow affinity, especially since we've seen channelers perform feats that should be impossible due to a Talent or a flow affinity. Weaves and what could be done by a man and a woman sometimes just varied. We know men and women have different weaves for Traveling and only one strength minimum is mentioned, perhaps the way men Traveled was just generally easier than the way women did it. We know air bridges have a maximum distance they could span and that a weaker woman could achieve the same as Rand could etc...

I think RJ wrote what fit the needs of the story and explained it with whatever device he deemed necessary. Beyond him making the general remark that women are more dexterous than men, I don't recall him ever giving a single detail about dexterity. He typically used Talent or flow affinity as his rationale for someone being particularly good at something.

Egwene's Earth affinity = cuendillar, other women with good strength in Earth could do it better than much stronger women

Siuan could still Heal to the same ability after her strength reduction

Ashmanaille could Travel, but didn't have the requisite strength to even make a non-useable gateway

Androl could make gateways well beyond what any of the most powerful channelers could achieve

Berowyn and her Shielding

Thing is, we have almost nothing to compare a male and a female channeler's strength. The only reason we even think they are different is because RJ said so, the OP feats in the books themselves give us no indication that Lanfear or Semirhage were as effective as Ishamael or that Mesaana was the same as Demandred or Aginor.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3273 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1017 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1007 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1147 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1046 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1131 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1149 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1341 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1003 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1137 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1177 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1122 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1189 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1152 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1297 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1262 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1253 Views
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Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1292 Views
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I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 994 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1269 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1124 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1215 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1288 Views
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Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1196 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1067 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1000 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1032 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1032 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1064 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1115 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1008 Views
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That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1059 Views
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Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1024 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1091 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1007 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1022 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1035 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 678 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1026 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1000 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1198 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1063 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1098 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1128 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1121 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1067 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1076 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1139 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 975 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1004 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1201 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1041 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1124 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1175 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 983 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1043 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 984 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 973 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1011 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1020 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1204 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1149 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1192 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1390 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1057 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1224 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 924 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 991 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 926 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 926 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1218 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 917 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1055 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1382 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 939 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1143 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1014 Views
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Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 974 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 645 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1039 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 859 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1044 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 558 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 593 Views
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Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 952 Views
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Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 876 Views
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Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 923 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1014 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 915 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1034 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1117 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 982 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1001 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 940 Views
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Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 912 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 987 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 979 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 938 Views
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Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 924 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 953 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 879 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 993 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 599 Views
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Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 953 Views
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Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 888 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 930 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 927 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 939 Views
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Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 979 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 984 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1095 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1143 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1145 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 909 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1059 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 978 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 925 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1059 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1002 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 885 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1042 Views

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