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Re: close enough to not debate about it Sidious Send a noteboard - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM

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I tend to agree with you that Rhavin probably is placed too high ... but RJ also made a point of showing that skill was more important than strength, look at Graendal, she's the second weakest Forsaken, but from the books was vastly more accomplished than those of much higher power!

And an another important point is that Graendal's fame came largely from her non OP skills. We knew she treated the minds the OP couldn't touch, and we don't know if the code of ethics of the AS let her use some forms of compulsion benevolently or if this was forbidden and she developed those skills, helped by her psychiatry background, only once a Forsaken.

Rhavin is largely described as a politician/diplomat. It's quite possible he never shone, despite his strength, as a channeler (the same can be said of Balthamel, for instance, and Moghedien). He surely was well trained, and surely he had to lend his Talents to tasks required by the Guild like everybody else, but it doesn't sound like he made a "OP"-focused career, the way Semirhage, Aginor, Lanfear or even Ishamael (as philosopher of the Wheel/Pattern/metaphysician) did. Demandred, like LTT, seems a bit of an unknown.. obviously both were very skilled channelers and it sounds likely they owed their ascension in the Guild to the merit of their service as AS, but as for the details we'll never know.



I do think Graendal should have had a higher strength rating given the comments from the books, or rather, that some of the other Forsaken should have been a bit lower as 3 doesn't seem too low for Graendal so much as Mesaana and Moghedien seem too high from the books. Semirhage was a little of a surprise, but not shocking. Mesaana as a 2 seems at least 2 levels too high and Moghedien seems like she should have been a 5, which also would have fit better with Nynaeve being her equal at one point, but still growing throughout the series without actually hitting her Level 3 potential. Similarly I would have thought the men would have been on at least 1 or even 2 more levels of the ++ ranks. From the books it seemed to me that the men should have been:

Ishamael, Aginor ++1
Demandred ++2
Sammael ++3
Balthamel ++3
Rhavin ++4
Be'lal ++4
Asmodean ++5

But to your point, Graendal clearly achieved her status through her career as a psychiatrist, despite her clear ability with the OP I find it strange that next to Moghedien she is the weakest of the Forsaken in strength.


Except that the books are not subtle at all regarding her prowess as a channeler. I have a strong feeling that she was strong in all five powers as well as unusually skilled with saidar, much like Egwene (I think Semirhage was too). She has no qualms taking on Sammael, Cyndane and Moghedien directly, and during the Last Battle she fought a group of the Light's most powerful channelers all at the same time. In many ways she was shown to be the most dangerous of all the Forsaken. I don't think it makes much of a difference if she was say 20% weaker than Ishamael if she has so much else going for her.

My male list would be...
Ishamael ++1
Demandred, Aginor, M'Hael ++2
Sammael, Rahvin ++3
Be'lal, Balthamel ++4
Asmodean ++5

Also remember that the Collapse took almost a century, and even the most unsuited channelers had plenty of time to learn to become lethal warriors with the Power. Peaceful non-channelers were eventually taking part in Sha-je duels... imagine what channelers were up to. After that they then had a full ten years during the War of Power to hone in on these skills, including a year where only balefire was used. Look at how dangerous Rand and Egwene became after only three years. If one reduced them to 'village people', it would be a dire mistake.


I personally found Graendal to be the most dangerous of the Forsaken by a long shot. Ishamael aside anyway ... but IMO he was something beyond the Forsaken and closer to a dark version of the Dragon and his use of the True Power really does set him apart. I like that her backstory showed us that even before the Collapse she was abrasive and obviously was a person who managed to make the most out of her world view. I suspect she innovated with Compulsion as part of her psychiatric work long before it was known. She's a great example of translating personal knowledge into functional OP ability.

Semirhage was a little of a disappointment to me as a character to be honest, she was set up so well to be a great villain, but I don't think she was well executed. She ended up a little flat IMO. Graendal started out very undefined, but became interesting as the series progressed, and her showing at the Last Battle was impressive, much more so than any of the Forsaken IMO.

Mesaana should have been weaker IMO ... Level 2 just doesn't match up all that well to the books to me. She was more like Moghedien to me, braver certainly, but still kept most of her agenda under deep wraps for fear of being caught out and she was outright dismissed by pretty much all of the others (even her allies didn't seem to think much of her).

Sammael could have been a better villain, but RJ was clearly going more for the action/adventure dueling situations with the early Forsaken (Be'lal and Rhavin weren't much different really).

Demandred was a let down, would have much prefered the Taimdred storyline I think. And ultimately he didn't get enough screen time in the series to be more than a "what's going to happen" situation.

I actually enjoyed Moghedien for the most part, in many ways she felt the most "human" of the Forsaken, her motivations were petty, but understandable and her cowardice was somewhat fun to observe, especially when she was convincing herself that her cowardice was actually just the smart play

Lanfear was pretty bland to me. When she first came on the scene I thought "okay, we have a dark temptress" ... then she just turned out to be a self-deluded psychopath. Wish RJ had given us more of Cyndane's story as I think seeing the mind-trapping from her perspective would have been much more interesting than what we got from Moghedien.

Asmodean I liked as a character, he was straight forward IMO and maybe could have been on his way to some sort of redemption if he hadn't been killed.

Balthamel/Aran'gar was a nice twist, and I found Halima's personality amusing and the interplay between her and the Aes Sedai was mostly well done.

Aginor/Osan'gar, Rhavin and Be'lal weren't really defined enough to care all that much about. Wish they had done more with Dashiva while he was with the Asha'man. RJ hinted at some of the manipulation he had been up to, but didn't show us enough to make it really pay off.


I think if we're honest with ourselves the most powerful of the Forsaken would undoubtedly be Demandred. He's basically a shadow clone of Lews Therin, and he's loaded with intelligence and talents. He was unfortunately wasted as a character. We couldn't see his skill at any point, just blind idiotic hatred for LTT. It's also difficult to respect anyone who needs a circle of 72 and Sakarnen to get something done. I hated Demandred, but even I think he deserved better.

I don't think Ishamael is a skilled channeler at all actually, but the TP is a major advantage. His insanity also gave him an edge, but I'd rather face him than Demandred.

Semirhage was a massive disappointment especially because she is as strong as Lanfear and likely as or more skilled, and yet it came down to a fireball, some threats and balefire. I have huge regrets about the character, especially because we were denied her even at the Cleansing. A Semirhage PoV would have been mind-blowing. I suspect that if she had been fleshed out more she would have been as impressive as Graendal, who was magnificent even as an old hag. Lanfear's display at the docks remains my favourite Forsaken scene of the whole series. All of the Forsaken tea parties after LoC are horrific to read.

Moghedien was more comic relief than anything else, but her interaction with Nynaeve was enjoyable as well as her balefire across the entire harbour. I actually really enjoyed Mesaana and her showdown with Egwene in TAR.

The rest of the Forsaken were all forgettable, and I won't even start on the reincarnations. Apart from Hessalam, I hated reading every moment of their respective arcs.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3758 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1490 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1462 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1626 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1516 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1653 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1733 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1810 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1505 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1608 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1630 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1646 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1629 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1660 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1827 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1783 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1790 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1580 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1831 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1685 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1525 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1813 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1616 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1737 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1784 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1558 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1665 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1556 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1487 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1514 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1496 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1576 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1579 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1494 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1831 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1504 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1490 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1490 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 896 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1520 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1536 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1441 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1507 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1515 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 977 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1483 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1492 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1679 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1573 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1591 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1622 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1638 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1559 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1600 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1633 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1410 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1497 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1663 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1478 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1588 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1645 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1453 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1577 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1434 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1447 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1514 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1496 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1637 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1641 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1675 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1989 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1496 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1813 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1421 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1452 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1443 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1370 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1763 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1417 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1526 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1998 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1429 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1641 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1486 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1360 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1407 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1475 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1429 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1447 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 925 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1519 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1326 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1507 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 828 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 858 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1508 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1474 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1396 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1401 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1360 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1381 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1410 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1475 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1412 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1395 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1458 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1397 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1512 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1578 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1488 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1514 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1390 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1483 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1375 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1472 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1464 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1412 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1449 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1388 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1435 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1356 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1496 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 862 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1450 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1362 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1510 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1452 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1450 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1392 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1345 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1388 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1428 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1462 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1392 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1535 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1468 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1571 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1505 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1419 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1476 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1582 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1609 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1471 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1747 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1667 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1620 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1404 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1597 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1461 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1366 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1490 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1484 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1382 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1577 Views

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