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Re: close enough to not debate about it Sidious Send a noteboard - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM

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I tend to agree with you that Rhavin probably is placed too high ... but RJ also made a point of showing that skill was more important than strength, look at Graendal, she's the second weakest Forsaken, but from the books was vastly more accomplished than those of much higher power!

And an another important point is that Graendal's fame came largely from her non OP skills. We knew she treated the minds the OP couldn't touch, and we don't know if the code of ethics of the AS let her use some forms of compulsion benevolently or if this was forbidden and she developed those skills, helped by her psychiatry background, only once a Forsaken.

Rhavin is largely described as a politician/diplomat. It's quite possible he never shone, despite his strength, as a channeler (the same can be said of Balthamel, for instance, and Moghedien). He surely was well trained, and surely he had to lend his Talents to tasks required by the Guild like everybody else, but it doesn't sound like he made a "OP"-focused career, the way Semirhage, Aginor, Lanfear or even Ishamael (as philosopher of the Wheel/Pattern/metaphysician) did. Demandred, like LTT, seems a bit of an unknown.. obviously both were very skilled channelers and it sounds likely they owed their ascension in the Guild to the merit of their service as AS, but as for the details we'll never know.



I do think Graendal should have had a higher strength rating given the comments from the books, or rather, that some of the other Forsaken should have been a bit lower as 3 doesn't seem too low for Graendal so much as Mesaana and Moghedien seem too high from the books. Semirhage was a little of a surprise, but not shocking. Mesaana as a 2 seems at least 2 levels too high and Moghedien seems like she should have been a 5, which also would have fit better with Nynaeve being her equal at one point, but still growing throughout the series without actually hitting her Level 3 potential. Similarly I would have thought the men would have been on at least 1 or even 2 more levels of the ++ ranks. From the books it seemed to me that the men should have been:

Ishamael, Aginor ++1
Demandred ++2
Sammael ++3
Balthamel ++3
Rhavin ++4
Be'lal ++4
Asmodean ++5

But to your point, Graendal clearly achieved her status through her career as a psychiatrist, despite her clear ability with the OP I find it strange that next to Moghedien she is the weakest of the Forsaken in strength.


Except that the books are not subtle at all regarding her prowess as a channeler. I have a strong feeling that she was strong in all five powers as well as unusually skilled with saidar, much like Egwene (I think Semirhage was too). She has no qualms taking on Sammael, Cyndane and Moghedien directly, and during the Last Battle she fought a group of the Light's most powerful channelers all at the same time. In many ways she was shown to be the most dangerous of all the Forsaken. I don't think it makes much of a difference if she was say 20% weaker than Ishamael if she has so much else going for her.

My male list would be...
Ishamael ++1
Demandred, Aginor, M'Hael ++2
Sammael, Rahvin ++3
Be'lal, Balthamel ++4
Asmodean ++5

Also remember that the Collapse took almost a century, and even the most unsuited channelers had plenty of time to learn to become lethal warriors with the Power. Peaceful non-channelers were eventually taking part in Sha-je duels... imagine what channelers were up to. After that they then had a full ten years during the War of Power to hone in on these skills, including a year where only balefire was used. Look at how dangerous Rand and Egwene became after only three years. If one reduced them to 'village people', it would be a dire mistake.


I personally found Graendal to be the most dangerous of the Forsaken by a long shot. Ishamael aside anyway ... but IMO he was something beyond the Forsaken and closer to a dark version of the Dragon and his use of the True Power really does set him apart. I like that her backstory showed us that even before the Collapse she was abrasive and obviously was a person who managed to make the most out of her world view. I suspect she innovated with Compulsion as part of her psychiatric work long before it was known. She's a great example of translating personal knowledge into functional OP ability.

Semirhage was a little of a disappointment to me as a character to be honest, she was set up so well to be a great villain, but I don't think she was well executed. She ended up a little flat IMO. Graendal started out very undefined, but became interesting as the series progressed, and her showing at the Last Battle was impressive, much more so than any of the Forsaken IMO.

Mesaana should have been weaker IMO ... Level 2 just doesn't match up all that well to the books to me. She was more like Moghedien to me, braver certainly, but still kept most of her agenda under deep wraps for fear of being caught out and she was outright dismissed by pretty much all of the others (even her allies didn't seem to think much of her).

Sammael could have been a better villain, but RJ was clearly going more for the action/adventure dueling situations with the early Forsaken (Be'lal and Rhavin weren't much different really).

Demandred was a let down, would have much prefered the Taimdred storyline I think. And ultimately he didn't get enough screen time in the series to be more than a "what's going to happen" situation.

I actually enjoyed Moghedien for the most part, in many ways she felt the most "human" of the Forsaken, her motivations were petty, but understandable and her cowardice was somewhat fun to observe, especially when she was convincing herself that her cowardice was actually just the smart play

Lanfear was pretty bland to me. When she first came on the scene I thought "okay, we have a dark temptress" ... then she just turned out to be a self-deluded psychopath. Wish RJ had given us more of Cyndane's story as I think seeing the mind-trapping from her perspective would have been much more interesting than what we got from Moghedien.

Asmodean I liked as a character, he was straight forward IMO and maybe could have been on his way to some sort of redemption if he hadn't been killed.

Balthamel/Aran'gar was a nice twist, and I found Halima's personality amusing and the interplay between her and the Aes Sedai was mostly well done.

Aginor/Osan'gar, Rhavin and Be'lal weren't really defined enough to care all that much about. Wish they had done more with Dashiva while he was with the Asha'man. RJ hinted at some of the manipulation he had been up to, but didn't show us enough to make it really pay off.


I think if we're honest with ourselves the most powerful of the Forsaken would undoubtedly be Demandred. He's basically a shadow clone of Lews Therin, and he's loaded with intelligence and talents. He was unfortunately wasted as a character. We couldn't see his skill at any point, just blind idiotic hatred for LTT. It's also difficult to respect anyone who needs a circle of 72 and Sakarnen to get something done. I hated Demandred, but even I think he deserved better.

I don't think Ishamael is a skilled channeler at all actually, but the TP is a major advantage. His insanity also gave him an edge, but I'd rather face him than Demandred.

Semirhage was a massive disappointment especially because she is as strong as Lanfear and likely as or more skilled, and yet it came down to a fireball, some threats and balefire. I have huge regrets about the character, especially because we were denied her even at the Cleansing. A Semirhage PoV would have been mind-blowing. I suspect that if she had been fleshed out more she would have been as impressive as Graendal, who was magnificent even as an old hag. Lanfear's display at the docks remains my favourite Forsaken scene of the whole series. All of the Forsaken tea parties after LoC are horrific to read.

Moghedien was more comic relief than anything else, but her interaction with Nynaeve was enjoyable as well as her balefire across the entire harbour. I actually really enjoyed Mesaana and her showdown with Egwene in TAR.

The rest of the Forsaken were all forgettable, and I won't even start on the reincarnations. Apart from Hessalam, I hated reading every moment of their respective arcs.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3250 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 965 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 952 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1093 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 992 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1080 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1091 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1283 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 946 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1082 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1121 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1059 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1133 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1091 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1239 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1199 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1209 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1008 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1242 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1076 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 941 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1216 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1068 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1163 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1229 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1012 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1146 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1019 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 951 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 965 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 978 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1003 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1053 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 955 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1188 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 981 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 934 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 965 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 600 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 998 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1034 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 944 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 973 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 954 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 651 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 976 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 949 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1146 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1011 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1041 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1077 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1073 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1002 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1018 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1084 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 925 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 945 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1144 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 978 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1071 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1116 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 924 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 972 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 923 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 916 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 955 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 970 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1146 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1095 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1137 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1330 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1004 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1176 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 874 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 930 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 871 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 883 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1157 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1002 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1332 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 883 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1108 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 953 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 852 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 880 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 949 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 910 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 915 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 612 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 974 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 834 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 984 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 533 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 566 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 980 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 933 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 907 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 911 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 874 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 824 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 880 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 916 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 838 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 868 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 955 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 863 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 978 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1059 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 915 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 947 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 886 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 983 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 887 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 929 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 919 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 888 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 898 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 874 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 898 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 819 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 937 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 576 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 903 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 867 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 954 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 899 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 930 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 895 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 828 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 879 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 868 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 918 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 846 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1032 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 960 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1032 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 890 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 868 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 887 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1038 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 920 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 922 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1039 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1085 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1094 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 854 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1009 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 926 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 869 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1010 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 955 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 827 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 986 Views

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