Active Users:1331 Time:17/12/2025 03:51:58 PM
Some points Sidious Send a noteboard - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM

I think in many ways Darius is right about this. I'd like to raise a few points.

Firstly, channelers can use the power that drives the universe and most of them know it, even if only on a subconscious level. What's worse is that they are living in a feudal and not very advanced society, and human nature naturally gravitates towards "boldness", arrogance and similar traits especially when one is handed great power (and longevity). Some of the stronger channelers have been said to be able to tear down half a palace if they want to. There are very few truly humble channelers in the books, and we've seen channelers fall back on the True Source if they don't get what they want. Channeling is a lot like physical strength - powerful, athletic and good looking people are often arrogant and "bold". It's a theme as old as civilization. Anaiya's statement isn't absurd if you consider that the Power is what has established the hierarchy of the WT. Right or wrong, there is no evidence that this has changed. They mentioned it when they chose Egwene as the rebel Amyrlin, and it has been the reason that they have hounded Cadsuane to be the Amyrlin several times, even at the very end of the series. Cadsuane mentioned that she was very arrogant in her power when she gained the shawl, until she was humbled by a near toothless wilder. She is almost the only character whom I can think of who appreciates that even the greatest can be humbled. Most other characters think that they were unlucky and will 'have their revenge'.

One should also remember that half of the AOL Aes Sedai joined the Shadow during the War of Power. Channeling definitely gives people a sense of god-like power in most instances, even if it's not fully apparent at first. Rand's allusion to Moiraine as a 'little sister' is more than a hint that this sort of structuring may have been present then too.

The actual act of channeling even creates euphoria, and Nynaeve under Compulsion admitted that having access to so much power terrifies her. It's very likely that boldness in personality grows with strength in the Power, especially in the WT where people have to respect you if you're strong even if you're an imbecile (look at Elaida). I'm not saying that it's intrinsic, but rather that it is reinforced socially. Aes Sedai are told they are better than non Aes Sedai, strong channelers can boss weaker ones around etc. There are countless times when AS have told Nynaeve about how massive she is going to be one day and after a few years that has got to rub off.

Secondly, no one has introduced anything about relativism. Many of the Forsaken are akin to AOL royalty. Most of them were world famous whereas Mesaana was not. I don't think it's an easy crowd to be around unless you have very good self-esteem. Mesaana was not an achiever in her age, and she's not even beautiful (sometimes this is enough for even a modern woman to make her feel diminished). Same with Moghedien. Compare this to the others who are all very strong, beautiful and formally accomplished and it explains a lot. Rahvin may not be famous, but he's pretty much as handsome as a man can be and as strong in the Power as possible - I doubt he's had to face many serious social issues in his life that he couldn't get past. Of course, when Mesaana is around anyone who is not Forsaken (like Alviarin), she comes across as great as any queen, and there's no lack of 'boldness' there. Her massive arrogance around Egwene was not subtle at all. There are many other examples - Nynaeve is a very bold woman, but she becomes meek around Alivia. Daigian sits quietly among other Aes Sedai because of her weakness, yet that meekness vanishes when she's with her warder or is out and about like as an individual Aes Sedai.

As a last point, I also don't think Mesaana has a capacity for evil that many of the Forsaken have. She basically admits it when comparing herself to Semirhage. People like Graendal, Lanfear, Demandred, Aginor and Ishamael have almost inhuman capacities for evil. It's unlikely that all of the Forsaken have the same capacity for evil. Many merely wanted immortality, and Mesaana was more obsessed with her Nazi children's courts from a distance, than someone like Semirhage who was trying to keep people alive for years in agony, Lanfear driving people to suicide in dreams, or Demandred feeding whole cities to Trollocs. It's likely some of the Forsaken often thought "what the hell am I doing here?"

I'm not surprised that Darius thought that Mesaana should be less than 2. I have never seen Mesaana so high on any strength list over all the years that we have been fighting about it. It's likely that she's like Aginor - very strong but not very charismatic.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Reply to message
Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3543 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1290 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1265 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1435 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1302 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1443 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1461 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1618 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1294 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1411 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1440 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1428 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1446 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1449 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1614 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1590 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1549 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1362 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1608 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1486 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1290 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1588 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1413 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1537 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1594 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1358 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1467 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1334 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1298 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1308 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1305 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1358 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1381 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1298 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1643 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1326 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1268 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1279 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 799 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1291 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1347 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1256 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1306 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1303 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 874 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1288 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1297 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1482 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1365 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1382 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1405 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1422 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1343 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1393 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1431 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1241 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1291 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1456 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1289 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1403 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1450 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1242 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1360 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1216 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1237 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1294 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1288 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1441 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1442 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1455 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1821 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1299 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1623 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1223 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1260 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1252 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1195 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1524 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1210 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1321 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1805 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1225 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1447 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1261 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1165 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1212 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1290 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1232 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1244 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 815 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1326 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1147 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1305 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 739 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 765 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1300 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1289 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1210 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1225 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1174 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1158 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1202 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1278 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1201 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1198 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1259 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1193 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1305 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1375 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1284 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1294 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1199 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1286 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1185 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1290 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1246 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1196 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1218 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1175 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1230 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1160 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1297 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 774 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1242 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1174 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1298 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1248 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1228 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1207 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1153 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1210 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1228 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1216 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1198 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1330 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1279 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1380 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1234 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1217 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1260 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1374 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1400 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1248 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1538 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1437 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1436 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1204 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1381 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1263 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1186 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1301 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1286 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1171 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1377 Views

Reply to Message