Active Users:1170 Time:22/11/2024 07:46:56 PM
Re: It's always been confusing DomA Send a noteboard - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM

Yeah, it's confusing - Elayne's comment, notably, if it's really reliable given her limited knowledge. I was hoping other notes clarified that and it would find its way in the Enccylopedia, but it seems to be one of those things RJ kept vague enough he could do what he want with, and didn't feel any need to write in details somewhere. I supposed greater strength is only one factor that differentiate angreal and san'angreal, but we'll never know for sure.

It's like the formulas for the circles. We know it's not purely additive, but the exact calculations don't seem to have appeared in the notes. We can surmise RJ knew he didn't need more precision than that to write the story.

For sure he was more "economical" than many believe. I suspect from having seen some of the material that Harriet was a bit disingenuous when she said the notes were larger than the whole series. Sure.. in word count maybe it's true, but what I suspect she didn't say is that she counted everything, meaning all existing versions of every document in RJ's files and computer. E.g.: he could have a 30-page "work file" that in fact featured 10 pages of quotes from the books he needed at hand, 10 pages of info from other documents collected in that place for a purpose, and 10 pages of various reminders that in fact offered little new information (it all seemed aimed at ensuring continuity, little more). That same document might have existed in one version per book or per two books. It's easy enough to imagine that together all those files made up more pages than the whole series, but as we can see from the Companion, not a whole lot new information was in those notes. They were in a large part (at the library, anyway, but the Companion suggests it's the case with what wasn't there either) work-documents, to simplify his writing without having to search in a ton of older or more focused documents, like his "central listing" of all AS. So for a storyline or important character, he kept an up-to-date (more or less) file, with physical description, reminders of some opinions, reminders of what the character knew or not (incl. mostly very obvious things, and more "older" things than new as if RJ had done this more early on and stopped later, just carrying the older pointers from previous versions without adding new ones) and that sort of things. There weren't notes (or very rarely) in those files about what was coming in the future for that character (I suspect RJ had a limited amount of those, in other files about the book he was currently writing, and he didn't like mixing that with reference information he used as he wrote). Usually, those documents also listed, with basic information, the secondary characters the main one might meet in the current storyline, so Rand's file would list his sworn AS, Asha'man, Cadsuane's group, that sort of things. Another file was for Cadsuane's group, and a whole lot of it was a copy/paste from Rand's current document. The KOD era files all began with the same long paragraph he had written about the general mood and styles of supernatural events that should occur in the book.

It's fascinating, to observe how he worked but as a treasure chest of unpublished goodies, it was disappointing.

Two areas were particularly disappointing. Except for rare cases (such as a good explanation of the "progroms", there wasn't much in term of explanations of past events or back story. We were lucky to find one or two "revelations" that a character was responsible for this or that. He also rarely felt a need to put down in writing motivations, and when he did it concerned mostly interpersonal affairs rather than politics and such (of course when it was Rand or Egwene that line was a bit blurred anyway, but there really wasn't much that isn't already obvious from the books).

The second area was that of world building/geography/history. Most of what RJ had either went into the BWB or else was written especially for the BWB and then was included in the notes (I tend to think the latter, mostly, since the notes are full of direct quotes from the BWB - including its description of Tar Valon/WT). Basically, RJ made his stuff up as he required for the story, then he added the new things to the notes. So in the end it's pretty much like the books themselves... a great deal more details about Andor, Altara - virtually all of them in the books or the BWB, and much less about the nations we didn't heavily visited.

We saw more on Seanchan, a few more details on Sea Folk culture, but globally we already knew most of that information. Almost nothing we don't know about the AOL (that too was all in the BWB).

I suspect a very great deal if not the majority of the notes consists of sketches and diagrams, of the various drafts of the books too. That Harriet has kept completely under wrap (except for a vague sort of synopsis for the TGH/TDR that is at the library), and for the time being I suppose it will remain that way as RJ hated to show ongoing writings, even to Harriet herself. This will likely join the collection only after her death, or be accessible only to scholars, if RJ's work attract any.

But for certain RJ wasn't the Tolkien type, obsessed with his own world building to the point he half believed it real. He was a great deal more pragmatic, and didn't lose time crafting whole aspects of his world he might not in the end need. He rather seemed to like to create the details along the way. We'll never get for instance the details about Norla and her apparatus, because RJ was filling the gaps as he went along (but I do tend to think he was keeping that and the story of Mariam etc. in reserve for the breaking of Semirhage and Cadsuane's exile).

Some of the more interesting tidbits in the notes hinted at options RJ was contemplating. For instance it's obvious that for KOD or for AMOL, he was toying with the idea of giving us a clue about what happened to Verin. In the file listing Kinswomen, he had for some a few extra bits about their past, and for quite a few of them he duplicated the same note that they had been a novice under Verin and could have witnessed something she didn't understand. It's all very vague, but it seems he had an idea in the back of his mind to have one mention something puzzling at some point, but didn't know yet how that scene might go, or who it might involve.







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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3238 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 956 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 940 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1078 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 982 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1071 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1082 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1272 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 929 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1070 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1111 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1041 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1122 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1080 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1228 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1186 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1199 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 994 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1232 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1065 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 926 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1200 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1058 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1148 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1212 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1003 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1135 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1004 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 941 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 952 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 965 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 991 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1041 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 943 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1173 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 972 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 922 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 952 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 595 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 987 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1022 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 932 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 962 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 943 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 647 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 965 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 936 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1133 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 999 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1031 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1060 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1060 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 990 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1008 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1073 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 913 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 932 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1131 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 970 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1059 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1106 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 914 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 961 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 913 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 902 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 943 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 961 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1133 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1083 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1127 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1316 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 985 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1161 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 861 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 919 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 860 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 870 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1140 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 991 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1319 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 875 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1096 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 943 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 844 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 868 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 939 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 899 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 901 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 608 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 962 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 819 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 973 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 529 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 563 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 968 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 920 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 897 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 901 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 864 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 814 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 865 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 902 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 829 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 858 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 941 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 854 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 966 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1045 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 905 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 936 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 876 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 969 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 876 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 918 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 908 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 877 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 889 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 860 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 888 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 807 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 925 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 569 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 889 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 855 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 942 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 886 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 921 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 886 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 815 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 866 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 855 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 903 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 835 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1017 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 946 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1012 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 879 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 857 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 878 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1026 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 908 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 908 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1026 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1071 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1079 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 842 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 996 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 915 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 854 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 997 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 942 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 815 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 967 Views

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