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Re: It's always been confusing DomA Send a noteboard - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM

Yeah, it's confusing - Elayne's comment, notably, if it's really reliable given her limited knowledge. I was hoping other notes clarified that and it would find its way in the Enccylopedia, but it seems to be one of those things RJ kept vague enough he could do what he want with, and didn't feel any need to write in details somewhere. I supposed greater strength is only one factor that differentiate angreal and san'angreal, but we'll never know for sure.

It's like the formulas for the circles. We know it's not purely additive, but the exact calculations don't seem to have appeared in the notes. We can surmise RJ knew he didn't need more precision than that to write the story.

For sure he was more "economical" than many believe. I suspect from having seen some of the material that Harriet was a bit disingenuous when she said the notes were larger than the whole series. Sure.. in word count maybe it's true, but what I suspect she didn't say is that she counted everything, meaning all existing versions of every document in RJ's files and computer. E.g.: he could have a 30-page "work file" that in fact featured 10 pages of quotes from the books he needed at hand, 10 pages of info from other documents collected in that place for a purpose, and 10 pages of various reminders that in fact offered little new information (it all seemed aimed at ensuring continuity, little more). That same document might have existed in one version per book or per two books. It's easy enough to imagine that together all those files made up more pages than the whole series, but as we can see from the Companion, not a whole lot new information was in those notes. They were in a large part (at the library, anyway, but the Companion suggests it's the case with what wasn't there either) work-documents, to simplify his writing without having to search in a ton of older or more focused documents, like his "central listing" of all AS. So for a storyline or important character, he kept an up-to-date (more or less) file, with physical description, reminders of some opinions, reminders of what the character knew or not (incl. mostly very obvious things, and more "older" things than new as if RJ had done this more early on and stopped later, just carrying the older pointers from previous versions without adding new ones) and that sort of things. There weren't notes (or very rarely) in those files about what was coming in the future for that character (I suspect RJ had a limited amount of those, in other files about the book he was currently writing, and he didn't like mixing that with reference information he used as he wrote). Usually, those documents also listed, with basic information, the secondary characters the main one might meet in the current storyline, so Rand's file would list his sworn AS, Asha'man, Cadsuane's group, that sort of things. Another file was for Cadsuane's group, and a whole lot of it was a copy/paste from Rand's current document. The KOD era files all began with the same long paragraph he had written about the general mood and styles of supernatural events that should occur in the book.

It's fascinating, to observe how he worked but as a treasure chest of unpublished goodies, it was disappointing.

Two areas were particularly disappointing. Except for rare cases (such as a good explanation of the "progroms", there wasn't much in term of explanations of past events or back story. We were lucky to find one or two "revelations" that a character was responsible for this or that. He also rarely felt a need to put down in writing motivations, and when he did it concerned mostly interpersonal affairs rather than politics and such (of course when it was Rand or Egwene that line was a bit blurred anyway, but there really wasn't much that isn't already obvious from the books).

The second area was that of world building/geography/history. Most of what RJ had either went into the BWB or else was written especially for the BWB and then was included in the notes (I tend to think the latter, mostly, since the notes are full of direct quotes from the BWB - including its description of Tar Valon/WT). Basically, RJ made his stuff up as he required for the story, then he added the new things to the notes. So in the end it's pretty much like the books themselves... a great deal more details about Andor, Altara - virtually all of them in the books or the BWB, and much less about the nations we didn't heavily visited.

We saw more on Seanchan, a few more details on Sea Folk culture, but globally we already knew most of that information. Almost nothing we don't know about the AOL (that too was all in the BWB).

I suspect a very great deal if not the majority of the notes consists of sketches and diagrams, of the various drafts of the books too. That Harriet has kept completely under wrap (except for a vague sort of synopsis for the TGH/TDR that is at the library), and for the time being I suppose it will remain that way as RJ hated to show ongoing writings, even to Harriet herself. This will likely join the collection only after her death, or be accessible only to scholars, if RJ's work attract any.

But for certain RJ wasn't the Tolkien type, obsessed with his own world building to the point he half believed it real. He was a great deal more pragmatic, and didn't lose time crafting whole aspects of his world he might not in the end need. He rather seemed to like to create the details along the way. We'll never get for instance the details about Norla and her apparatus, because RJ was filling the gaps as he went along (but I do tend to think he was keeping that and the story of Mariam etc. in reserve for the breaking of Semirhage and Cadsuane's exile).

Some of the more interesting tidbits in the notes hinted at options RJ was contemplating. For instance it's obvious that for KOD or for AMOL, he was toying with the idea of giving us a clue about what happened to Verin. In the file listing Kinswomen, he had for some a few extra bits about their past, and for quite a few of them he duplicated the same note that they had been a novice under Verin and could have witnessed something she didn't understand. It's all very vague, but it seems he had an idea in the back of his mind to have one mention something puzzling at some point, but didn't know yet how that scene might go, or who it might involve.







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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3294 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1036 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1031 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1170 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1067 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1149 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1166 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1363 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1030 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1159 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1192 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1139 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1210 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1168 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1318 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1283 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1272 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1089 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1315 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1164 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1016 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1285 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1145 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1239 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1316 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1087 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1211 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1086 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1019 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1052 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1049 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1087 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1134 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1043 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1277 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1079 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1017 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1041 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 635 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1043 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1110 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1024 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1034 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1057 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 689 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1051 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1022 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1213 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1091 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1120 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1146 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1139 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1087 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1105 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1158 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 996 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1031 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1214 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1057 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1143 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1194 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1000 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1069 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 998 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 993 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1033 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1043 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1218 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1168 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1206 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1410 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1073 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1245 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 944 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1017 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 953 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 948 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1241 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1074 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1402 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 955 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1160 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1032 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 923 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 956 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 998 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 988 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 993 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 661 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1056 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 876 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1067 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 568 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 602 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1058 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1007 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 965 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 983 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 954 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 896 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 952 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 995 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 916 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 945 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1034 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 935 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1052 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1141 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 998 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1022 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 960 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1053 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 927 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1009 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 997 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 959 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 977 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 947 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 975 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 899 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1016 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 611 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 983 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 940 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1022 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 976 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 999 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 966 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 914 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 951 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 957 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 965 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 927 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1105 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1027 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1116 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 957 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 940 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 967 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1115 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 999 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1001 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1119 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1167 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1166 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 935 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1078 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1000 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 946 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1076 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1024 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 909 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1063 Views

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