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Re: Some more fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM

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This quote doesn't prove your point at all. More to the point it shows us that men of the lowest levels actually exist since it directly states the weakest man and the weakest woman are also equivalent

Equivalent in raw strength. The quote is pretty plain that they aren't effectively equal, though.
and that the bell curve needs to be adjusted to consider the preponderance of stronger men v. women. It also outright states that there are levels of male strength above female strength but does not note that there are different scales (i.e. men of level 66 exist).

No one is denying they exist. I'm questioning how effective they are, not their existence. Here's another RJ quote:
Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

"Men" can be much stronger. But "women" are much more deft. Its not a relationship that's true just at the uppermost level. It permeates the entirety of the scale.



Androl is not effective with anything aside from gateway production.

Not true. We see him weave light, freeze small amounts of water, heat tea... none of these use Gateways.
in fact he was shown to be even weaker in effect than Morgase when he attempted anything else,

This is just not true.
so the answer, again, is YES they exist, and no they can't do much. Training is part of Morgase's problem too ... she has basically zero training (less than 1 year in the Tower where her limited ability was essentially ignored).

I know Morgase's training was ignored. But we have no idea exactly how weak Androl was. He certainly does more, in the non-Gateway department, than she does. We even see him use motion sensing wards, and successfully bond a woman. Meybe these don't require much strength, but making a light certainly is an indicator of strength: Egwene with Forkroot could only make translucent fire. Sorilea's was translucent too. Androl's was not. We also see him burn away ropes, We see him throw fire at Taim, who actually dispels it, which he would have no reason to do if it wasn't at least in the range of Sorilea's which was "small and flickering weakly", per Perrin.

This is an unproven statement.

You are seriously arguing that a man holding the exact same amount of the OP as a woman won't be less effective than her?
The only comment we have relative to Naeff's strength is that he is below Nynaeve and yet with air is still as effective as she was. This supports the idea that he could also be weaker than Aviendha and still as effective as she was with a specific flow. Her strengths in Air were never commented upon beyond the generality that woman tended to be stronger with Air/Water than men.

You're right that he could be weaker than her and much stronger in Air. But we've seen Aviendha dispel an entire rainstorm in Caemlyn, and we know Cloud Dancing requires a reasonable amount of strength in Air. He may be stronger in Air than her, kind of like where Egwene is with Earth, but since we have no idea how strong he is in Air, the best estimate is to place him at a level where he would be effectively equal to Aviendha, which is level 5 for a man, other things being equal.

I fail to see how this is "wish fulfillment" ... it's a statement of how I read the text and I've made that clear. Being rude doesn't make your point any more valid.

I'm sorry if this came across as rude, but its just something I've seen before. We spent a long time arguing against the assumption that even the strongest Aes Sedai were much weaker than most Asha'man we saw. You yourself may have no wish to have any such thing be true, so accept my apologies for implying such a thing.
If he could make a useable gateway when they bonded he was ALREADY at a level 19 thus any jump in his level would make him already very close to Merise and for her, a woman known to be very strict about her Warders, to Cadsuane looking for advice is remarkable in and of itself. Cadsuane notes this in the scene. Many on this board would even argue that Narishma was already stronger than Merise. I simply think this is a case of a woman reassuring herself that she could maintain control of a man stronger than herself, and she goes on to become even more strict with Narishma so this seems to be even more the case IMO.

I fail to see that, though. I'm not saying your argument is impossible, and in fact, by my view, he already could hold, in raw strength, as much or more than Merise. I just don't see any necessity for his effective strength to be greater than hers, though, for Merise to be worried. She may have thought that her control over him was due to her greater effectiveness, and seeing him improve that, while still being overall weaker than how effective she is would make her worried, no matter whether he was super close to her level or not. Since he was young, she had no idea how far this progression would reach. That seems immensely obvious in her words:
“At first, I thought the way these Asha’man train, the forcing, had pushed him to his full strength already,” Merise said, frowning down at the two men working their practice blades. No; it was at Jahar she was frowning. Just a faint crinkle of her eyes, but she reserved her frowns for those who could see and know her displeasure. “At Shadar Logoth, I thought I must be imagining it. Three or four days ago, I was half convinced I was mistaken. Now, I am sure I am correct. If men gain strength by fits and starts, there is no saying how strong he will become.”

Merise was being uncharacteristically blunt and open. Would she be reticent and hold back if she thought he was already stronger than her?

Plus, the way she says she doubted shows that the jump wasn't very far beyond where he was before.




Not at all the case. Men and women are both actively in circles and have been shown in the series on many occasions to be vastly more effective when mixed in circles. Furthermore, the entry also specifically mentions Androl and his Talent just before it points out that 19 and 21 are the minimums. Pretty cut and dry.

Actually, no. Here's what Dom said Brandon told him:
Brandon confirmed to me post signing last summer that RJ had nothing to compare male vs. female strength. He kept two separate systems, one for women and one for men.

We only see the upper end of the male system, and obviously the levels below, like level 19 and the associated limits for channeling cannot apply to men, since they're in a completely separate system.



I see no evidence that points to any of these men being as high as a level 13, except an arbitrary
thought process that men must be +6 levels above a woman to achieve the same effect. There is absolutely nothing to support this in the text or in the Companion.

How is it arbitrary. I didn't invent the six level difference between the strongest man and strongest woman. RJ did. I never said that the weakest Aes Sedai would be more effective than a man who can channel the same exact amount of the OP as a man on her level, RJ did. I never decided that at any given level of strength, a woman will live longer than a man of the same strength. These are all in the book, and I'm inferring the simplest extension of it. The levels 1 for a woman and ++1 are functionally equivalent. The simplest extension is that level ++2 is functionally equivalent to level 2 and so on. If you want to violate Occam's Razor and come up with some more convoluted relationship below levels 1 and ++1, the burden of evidence is on you. Can you show that as women get weaker, their dexterity advantage reduces?

Perhaps, but you are also making a huge leap in assuming something that is intuitively incorrect.

Intuitively incorrect implies some glaring piece of evidence against what I'm saying. What is that evidence?
You are trying to force a 1:1 correlation between strength levels and dexterity advantages.

No, I'm saying that the dexterity advantage is a constant across the strength scale. I'm not saying at all that the stronger you are the more the dexterity advantage, which is what a 1:1 correlation would imply.
We have more to prove that this is not the case than to prove for it. Lanfear can perform the same tasks that Lews Therin could so we know that a Level 1 woman and a ++1 Man in theory can do the same stuff to the same effect. We have ZERO evidence that this scale matches exactly all the way down the strength scale.

We do. RJ's quote would otherwise have mentioned some kind of trailing dexterity advantage. Instead, he says: Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%

That right there says there is no difference lower down. Otherwise he would have to qualify that statement. He would have to say that some women have more deftness than some men, but the reverse can be true as well. But he doesn't. Every time he mentions the deftness/dexterity/effectiveness advantage, he does so as a signular thing, not as some kind of scale, or something that changes with strength. Same with mentions of this in the Companion.


Graendal was a level 3, what evidence do we have that she was less effective than Demandred at ++2 ... ZERO.

That is because of multiple factors. We know the difference between any two levels isn't much. At multiple times in the companion we are told some at level X is almost as strong as someone at level X+1. For another, you seem to think being of the same effective strength is all there is to it. But skill, knowledge etc also come into play. We've seen Graendal not even bother to attack Sammael despite being angry with him because he already held the source and would sense if she tried. She has, at another time, threatened him to his face, and Moridin's PoV says either one could die in such a confrontation. Does this prove that Graendal at was functionally equal to Sammael at ++2? Or just that those two levels aren't far enough away to make any firm conclusions? Or that Graendal is more skilled, and thus punches above her weight? You say it is option 1, but we know both options 2 and 3 have directly got textual support: We are told the six levels above Lanfear aren't all that significant: “While there were six additional levels for men above those for women, the disparity was not as great as it seemed, measuring the bulk quantity of the One Power that a person could handle.”

If a six level disparity isn't all that great, a one level one would be even less so.

And we're also told:


Among both men and women strength and skill were not the same thing. It was possible for one person to have great raw strength yet be less effective in many situations than another who had lesser strength but greater dexterity with the flows or greater knowledge in using them. While there were limits to strength for anyone—there was a certain upper limit which could never be surpassed—there were no real limits to increasing skill. Anyone could increase their knowledge, though of course, some would have greater ability to increase dexterity with the flows than others.

Both these can show why Graendal may be as effective as Demandred, or Sammael, or even Rand. We don't know that she is, but if she is, there's plenty of pre-explained reasons for it than some imagined reduction in dexterity with strength among women which somehow manages to make a woman who should best case be of effective strength equal to a man of ++3 even stronger.
There could easily be a larger dexterity advantage for stronger women that narrowed down until we reached level 66 where the weakest woman and the weakest man are effectively as well as actually the same strength.

Firstly, wouldn't this make Graendal only weaker than Demandred. By your own (flawed) logic above, this should disprove a trailing scale for dexterity, no?

But even ignoring that, the presence of any such decrease in dexterity would mean RJ simply used weird language. He kept calling it a dexterity advantage for women, never once indicating the advantage had varying benefits for women of different strengths. Before his 62.5% quote, he had only mentioned this advantage with respect to the strongest man and woman. However, in the 62.5% quote he says:
Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I’ve said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

In short, if you think dexterity decreases with strength among women, please give evidence for it. And no, the above quote isn't proof, as you insisted elsewhere. When he says the weakest man and weakest woman are oughly equivalent, he's clearly talking about raw strength, because he contrasts that with the strongest man and strongest woman, who in fact aren't equivalent in how much raw strength they draw.



Nope ... Androl could make weaves that did exactly nothing. Moiraine commented that she was in much the same boat after the 'Finns, training is the difference with Morgase, who might be a 64 for all we know.

Per Terez, Morgase is level 66, IIRC. Also, who said Androl was at this level? Was there something in the text I missed. He's certainly doing a lot more than Morgase can. He at the very least is giving Sorilea a run for money.
Yes a woman at 45 would be more effective to some degree than a man at 45, but there is ZERO to show that she would be the effective equal of a man level 39 ... point is she could be as effective as a man level 44 (and honestly this seems more likely since women occupy 66 levels and men occupy 72 levels but the top and bottom levels are still effectively the same.

Sorry, no. You're conflating two quotes. The top levels have different raw strengths but the same effective strength. The bottom levels have the same raw strength but we have no clue what their relative effectiveness is. What we do know is that bottom level women live to 150, but bottom level men live to 135, indicating some difference, even though they're drawing the same amount of OP per RJ's statement that the bottom is the same for men and women in raw strength terms.

I'm making the simplest extrapolation of all this data to say there is a constant dexterity advantage. This is supported by all of RJ's and Companion quotes which call it a singular thing rather than a scale. That this advantage is constant is supported by RJ's statement that the same exact proportion of the male and female populations will be effectively strong enough to be Aes Sedai by WT standards. Further, there's this quote from the Companion:


This strength was a matter of the sheer raw amount of the One Power that could be drawn. In kind, there was nothing a man could do with any part of the Power that a woman could not, and vice versa.

"A" man and "a" woman, here, not "strongest". Once again, this says that the strength advantage for men, across to board, is matched by the dexterity advantage for women. By your metric, the weaker the woman, the less able she is to match a man above her level, which this statement flagrantly contradicts.

Then there's this:


Thus the strongest man would be ++1, the 800-year level in aging. Ranks ++2 to ++6 would have an aging range of 720 to 800 years. The strongest woman would be 1(+12), with a life expectancy of around 800 years; a man of the same rough level, which was 7, would have a life expectancy of 720 years.

Further, we are told:


A given strength level did not produce the same degree of longevity for a man as for a woman. At any given level of equality, a woman would live longer. In general, a man at any given strength would have a normal lifespan roughly ten percent less than that of a woman of that strength.

And in case there's any doubt that this advantage is lower in weaker women:


Strength level 56(44) was the 300-year age level, 67(55) the 200-year age level, and the bottom level, 72(60), approximately the 150-year level for women. The male equivalents were approximately the 240-year, 180-year, and 135-year levels for men.

So, to sum:

1)There is a constant 10% longevity advantage for women.
2) There is a hard number for men strong enough to be Aes Sedai in raw strength terms but not in terms of effective strength.
3) In multiple mentions of the dexterity advantage for women, not once is a dexterity scale mentioned.

In the entirety of this system, the theme is a mild strength advantage for men, made up for with a constant advantage for women to match them to the men. I see absolutely no evidence anywhere at all that women of different strengths get different dexterity advantage.

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