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Re: Some more - Edit 1

Before modification by darius_sedai at 02/12/2015 02:29:15 AM



They do. Here's the RJ quote to prove it:
Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bell curve. I’ll leave the maths to you for an idle moment. The question doesn’t really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bell curve. Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%. Again, the maths are all yours. Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I’ve said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

This quote doesn't prove your point at all. More to the point it shows us that men of the lowest levels actually exist since it directly states the weakest man and the weakest woman are also equivalent and that the bell curve needs to be adjusted to consider the preponderance of stronger men v. women. It also outright states that there are levels of male strength above female strength but does not note that there are different scales (i.e. men of level 66 exist).


It isn't just that the strongest woman and strongest man are effectively equal despite a difference in the volume of OP they can draw. It carries all the way through, or there wouldn't be 2.9% of the male population that is technically strong enough to be Aes Sedai strength, but not effective enough to be considered so, if such limitations held at the BT.
But are the men at the lowest rungs effective channelers at all? We've seen Morghase be able to do some small things. Can men at that level do anything? I doubt it. For all intents and purposes, all they have is the ability to rarely touch the OP, and increase their lifespan. Whereas Morgase is proof that women can actually use that puny strength to affect the world, if in incredibly small ways.

Androl is not effective with anything aside from gateway production. in fact he was shown to be even weaker in effect than Morgase when he attempted anything else, so the answer, again, is YES they exist, and no they can't do much. Training is part of Morgase's problem too ... she has basically zero training (less than 1 year in the Tower where her limited ability was essentially ignored).


If Naeff could draw as much of the OP as Aviendha, he wouldn't be able to have as much of an effect as her. Granted, he is strong in Air, but its not like she's weak in it.</quote?

This is an unproven statement. The only comment we have relative to Naeff's strength is that he is below Nynaeve and yet with air is still as effective as she was. This supports the idea that he could also be weaker than Aviendha and still as effective as she was with a specific flow. Her strengths in Air were never commented upon beyond the generality that woman tended to be stronger with Air/Water than men.


This is pure wish fulfilment. We have no way of knowing what she meant on his actual strength. We knew he had been previously forced, and we knew he could make a usable gateway. If, in a matter of weeks, he jumped up even one level, that is remarkable by Aes Sedai standards. So he could have moved from an effective level of 19 to 18, and that would still make Merise worry, as he is young, and could potentially outstrip her.

I fail to see how this is "wish fulfillment" ... it's a statement of how I read the text and I've made that clear. Being rude doesn't make your point any more valid. If he could make a useable gateway when they bonded he was ALREADY at a level 19 thus any jump in his level would make him already very close to Merise and for her, a woman known to be very strict about her Warders, to Cadsuane looking for advice is remarkable in and of itself. Cadsuane notes this in the scene. Many on this board would even argue that Narishma was already stronger than Merise. I simply think this is a case of a woman reassuring herself that she could maintain control of a man stronger than herself, and she goes on to become even more strict with Narishma so this seems to be even more the case IMO.



The listing of a circle seems to be a pretty clear pointer that the strength levels being listed are for women.

Not at all the case. Men and women are both actively in circles and have been shown in the series on many occasions to be vastly more effective when mixed in circles. Furthermore, the entry also specifically mentions Androl and his Talent just before it points out that 19 and 21 are the minimums. Pretty cut and dry.


Androl's Traveling talent is specifically called out in this entry so it seems true for men as well as women. There is no mention that this would be different for men than women. All we know here is that there would be a higher percentage of men who fall into this strength level or higher because men are generally stronger than women, but not always.

But a man of strength level 19 wouldn't be as effective as a woman in that level. There are entirely too many quotes that prove just this.
I suspect some are stronger, like Flinn, but I would just change that number to level 13.

I see no evidence that points to any of these men being as high as a level 13, except an arbitrary thought process that men must be +6 levels above a woman to achieve the same effect. There is absolutely nothing to support this in the text or in the Companion.


Take the RJ quote I posted above. If there is a dexterity scale, the numbers would be much more complicated. RJ would have to make a caveat for a man who is as strong as Daigian in raw strength, but more dextrous than most men, and therefor effective enough to be "Aes Sedai". But he doesn't. He clearly says men who are drawing as much OP as the weakest Aes Sedai would be too ineffective to technically be Aes Sedai.

Perhaps, but you are also making a huge leap in assuming something that is intuitively incorrect. You are trying to force a 1:1 correlation between strength levels and dexterity advantages. We have more to prove that this is not the case than to prove for it. Lanfear can perform the same tasks that Lews Therin could so we know that a Level 1 woman and a ++1 Man in theory can do the same stuff to the same effect. We have ZERO evidence that this scale matches exactly all the way down the strength scale. Graendal was a level 3, what evidence do we have that she was less effective than Demandred at ++2 ... ZERO. There could easily be a larger dexterity advantage for stronger women that narrowed down until we reached level 66 where the weakest woman and the weakest man are effectively as well as actually the same strength.


Nope. We just don't know that a level 66 man can do anything. We know of someone who is either level 66 or very close to it who can actually move a handkerchief. A man of that level will simply be unable to do anything useful, per RJ's statement. Or maybe he can only mildly budge a fly. Point being, there is no equivalency in the lowest level beyond raw OP strength. They are clearly not effectively equal.

As for the lower levels below ++1 and 1, clearly there is an equality, and that goes all the way down to the female level 45, which is more effective than the male level 45, per RJ.


Nope ... Androl could make weaves that did exactly nothing. Moiraine commented that she was in much the same boat after the 'Finns, training is the difference with Morgase, who might be a 64 for all we know.

Yes a woman at 45 would be more effective to some degree than a man at 45, but there is ZERO to show that she would be the effective equal of a man level 39 ... point is she could be as effective as a man level 44 (and honestly this seems more likely since women occupy 66 levels and men occupy 72 levels but the top and bottom levels are still effectively the same.


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