Active Users:1138 Time:22/11/2024 07:57:52 PM
Re: Some more darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM


They do. Here's the RJ quote to prove it:
Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bell curve. I’ll leave the maths to you for an idle moment. The question doesn’t really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bell curve. Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%. Again, the maths are all yours. Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I’ve said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

This quote doesn't prove your point at all. More to the point it shows us that men of the lowest levels actually exist since it directly states the weakest man and the weakest woman are also equivalent and that the bell curve needs to be adjusted to consider the preponderance of stronger men v. women. It also outright states that there are levels of male strength above female strength but does not note that there are different scales (i.e. men of level 66 exist).


It isn't just that the strongest woman and strongest man are effectively equal despite a difference in the volume of OP they can draw. It carries all the way through, or there wouldn't be 2.9% of the male population that is technically strong enough to be Aes Sedai strength, but not effective enough to be considered so, if such limitations held at the BT.


But are the men at the lowest rungs effective channelers at all? We've seen Morghase be able to do some small things. Can men at that level do anything? I doubt it. For all intents and purposes, all they have is the ability to rarely touch the OP, and increase their lifespan. Whereas Morgase is proof that women can actually use that puny strength to affect the world, if in incredibly small ways.

Androl is not effective with anything aside from gateway production. in fact he was shown to be even weaker in effect than Morgase when he attempted anything else, so the answer, again, is YES they exist, and no they can't do much. Training is part of Morgase's problem too ... she has basically zero training (less than 1 year in the Tower where her limited ability was essentially ignored).


If Naeff could draw as much of the OP as Aviendha, he wouldn't be able to have as much of an effect as her. Granted, he is strong in Air, but its not like she's weak in it.

This is an unproven statement. The only comment we have relative to Naeff's strength is that he is below Nynaeve and yet with air is still as effective as she was. This supports the idea that he could also be weaker than Aviendha and still as effective as she was with a specific flow. Her strengths in Air were never commented upon beyond the generality that woman tended to be stronger with Air/Water than men.


This is pure wish fulfilment. We have no way of knowing what she meant on his actual strength. We knew he had been previously forced, and we knew he could make a usable gateway. If, in a matter of weeks, he jumped up even one level, that is remarkable by Aes Sedai standards. So he could have moved from an effective level of 19 to 18, and that would still make Merise worry, as he is young, and could potentially outstrip her.

I fail to see how this is "wish fulfillment" ... it's a statement of how I read the text and I've made that clear. Being rude doesn't make your point any more valid. If he could make a useable gateway when they bonded he was ALREADY at a level 19 thus any jump in his level would make him already very close to Merise and for her, a woman known to be very strict about her Warders, to Cadsuane looking for advice is remarkable in and of itself. Cadsuane notes this in the scene. Many on this board would even argue that Narishma was already stronger than Merise. I simply think this is a case of a woman reassuring herself that she could maintain control of a man stronger than herself, and she goes on to become even more strict with Narishma so this seems to be even more the case IMO.



The listing of a circle seems to be a pretty clear pointer that the strength levels being listed are for women.

Not at all the case. Men and women are both actively in circles and have been shown in the series on many occasions to be vastly more effective when mixed in circles. Furthermore, the entry also specifically mentions Androl and his Talent just before it points out that 19 and 21 are the minimums. Pretty cut and dry.


I suspect some are stronger, like Flinn, but I would just change that number to level 13.

I see no evidence that points to any of these men being as high as a level 13, except an arbitrary thought process that men must be +6 levels above a woman to achieve the same effect. There is absolutely nothing to support this in the text or in the Companion.


Take the RJ quote I posted above. If there is a dexterity scale, the numbers would be much more complicated. RJ would have to make a caveat for a man who is as strong as Daigian in raw strength, but more dextrous than most men, and therefor effective enough to be "Aes Sedai". But he doesn't. He clearly says men who are drawing as much OP as the weakest Aes Sedai would be too ineffective to technically be Aes Sedai.

Perhaps, but you are also making a huge leap in assuming something that is intuitively incorrect. You are trying to force a 1:1 correlation between strength levels and dexterity advantages. We have more to prove that this is not the case than to prove for it. Lanfear can perform the same tasks that Lews Therin could so we know that a Level 1 woman and a ++1 Man in theory can do the same stuff to the same effect. We have ZERO evidence that this scale matches exactly all the way down the strength scale. Graendal was a level 3, what evidence do we have that she was less effective than Demandred at ++2 ... ZERO. There could easily be a larger dexterity advantage for stronger women that narrowed down until we reached level 66 where the weakest woman and the weakest man are effectively as well as actually the same strength.


Nope. We just don't know that a level 66 man can do anything. We know of someone who is either level 66 or very close to it who can actually move a handkerchief. A man of that level will simply be unable to do anything useful, per RJ's statement. Or maybe he can only mildly budge a fly. Point being, there is no equivalency in the lowest level beyond raw OP strength. They are clearly not effectively equal.

As for the lower levels below ++1 and 1, clearly there is an equality, and that goes all the way down to the female level 45, which is more effective than the male level 45, per RJ.


Nope ... Androl could make weaves that did exactly nothing. Moiraine commented that she was in much the same boat after the 'Finns, training is the difference with Morgase, who might be a 64 for all we know.

Yes a woman at 45 would be more effective to some degree than a man at 45, but there is ZERO to show that she would be the effective equal of a man level 39 ... point is she could be as effective as a man level 44 (and honestly this seems more likely since women occupy 66 levels and men occupy 72 levels but the top and bottom levels are still effectively the same.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 02/12/2015 at 02:29:15 AM
Reply to message
Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3238 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 956 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 940 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1078 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 983 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1071 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1082 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1272 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 929 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1070 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1111 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1041 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1122 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1080 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1228 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1187 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1199 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 994 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1232 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1065 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 926 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1200 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1058 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1148 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1212 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1003 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1135 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1004 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 941 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 952 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 965 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 991 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1041 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 943 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1173 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 972 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 922 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 953 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 596 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 988 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1023 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 933 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 963 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 943 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 647 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 965 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 936 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1133 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 999 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1031 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1061 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1060 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 991 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1008 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1073 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 913 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 932 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1131 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 971 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1059 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1106 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 914 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 961 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 913 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 902 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 944 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 962 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1133 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1083 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1127 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1316 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 985 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1161 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 861 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 920 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 860 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 870 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1140 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 991 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1320 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 876 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1097 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 943 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 844 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 869 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 940 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 900 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 901 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 609 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 962 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 820 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 973 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 529 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 563 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 968 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 920 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 897 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 901 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 864 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 814 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 865 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 902 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 829 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 858 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 942 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 854 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 966 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1045 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 905 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 936 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 876 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 970 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 877 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 918 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 908 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 877 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 889 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 860 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 888 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 808 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 925 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 569 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 890 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 855 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 942 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 886 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 921 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 886 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 815 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 866 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 855 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 903 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 835 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1017 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 946 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1012 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 879 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 857 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 878 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1026 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 908 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 908 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1026 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1072 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1079 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 842 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 996 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 915 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 855 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 997 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 942 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 815 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 967 Views

Reply to Message