Active Users:580 Time:19/12/2024 03:14:37 AM
Some things to consider... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 07/05/2014 11:22:46 PM

View original post
If this entire list is indeed linear, why did RJ take such great care to imply a vastly different power gap in the books? The examples that I can pull off the top of my head are legion. Together they form a consistent picture of a top Forsaken channeler being the equivalent of between 3-5 normal Aes Sedai.

Just a random bunch of examples:

Asmodean, Rahvin etc. all emphasizing the danger of a circle of 13. If even Moiraine on her own has 80% the effective strenth of Ishamael or Lanfear, all this talk of circles of 13 is utterly absurd. The Forsaken would be in danger if even 2 average Aes Sedai were present.


Except... Mesaana says Demandred wanted a sa'angreal before attacking Rand. And Cyndane is able to handle Alivia even though the latter had a powerful angreal. Both these facts show two things, I think:

1) A circle of 13 is overwhelmingly strong. At this point, skill differentials matter very little, since such a circle can shield you not matter what you try. Angreal also don't seem to help much against full circles.

2) The skill/knowledge differential between the Foresaken and modern Aes Sedai is such that they feel supremely confident of their abilities against just a few of them. It pretty clear smaller numbers can pose plenty of trouble, though (for example, LTT balks at Rand's plan to shield seven Aes Sedai, even though Rand has an angreal).


Lews Therin never feeling threatened by Allana and Verin - who are both above 50% of Lanfear's strength, according to the linear list, and therefore together they significantly exceed his effective strength.

Sure, but they were clearly outmatched in terms of knowledge and skill too.
Damer Flinn plus Sarene plus Corelle EXACTLY matching Demandred's lone, unaided strength. And this in a mixed gender circle, which is stated to be more effective than a single gender one.

Or... Damer wasn't really pulling in the full abilities of the circle. Perhaps in the Age of Legends, such a circle would have made mincemeat of Demandred unaided. This was Damer's first time in a mixed gender circle, after all.
Loial stating that both Guare Amalasan and Roalain Darksbane each defeated 6 Sisters who tried to overcome them. Even 6 Daigian's would be about twice Lanfear's strength. And 6 average Sisters would be about 350% of Lanfear's strength. No linking loss is going to bring that down to even close to a contestable match.

Except, once again, LTT thought Rand with an angreal couldn't shield seven Aes Sedai, but Rand cut through their illusion weave instead:

Not strong enough. Even with the angreal, maybe not strong enough, not to hold seven. You fool! You waited too long! Too dangerous!

With a not insignificant angreal, Rand isn't strong enough to shield seven sisters, and LTT thinks it is "too dangerous". Which makes one question the veracity of Loial's statement. Were the False Dragons unaided? Were the Aes Sedai tired and at the end of their strength? Had either of those False Dragons set up wards? We don't know the details, and in the face of that, I will trust an event in the present over histories filled with suppositions.

Remember too that Egwene thought that if she acted quickly, she could handle five Aes Sedai, but the moment they started holding the source, she said success would only last for moments. So surprise is another factor.


A weakened, exhausted Rand breaking free from 3 Sisters, which means he had to vastly exceed their strength, since he was already cut off from the Source. These were Red sisters, trained and specially selected to capture male channelers.

They weren't all Reds, only Sashelle was. Further, I don't know what skill is involved in holding a shield. What we do know is cross-gender shielding is incredibly hard, and these sisters weren't linked, but instead holding on to an already generated shield. Nynaeve is in the ball park of Logain's strength, and she found it hard to hold a shield on him too. Does this mean he vastly exceeds her strength too?

We really have very little information on strength differences needed to overpower someone of the opposite gender with shielding.


Logain apparently being able to come close to breaking free from a shield held by 5 Sisters. Even Daigian on the linear scale would be one third the strength of Lanfear. Since all 5 sisters had to be stronger than Daigian, we can quite comfortably say that their combined strength must have been around 200% that of Lanfear. Even if the linking loss is massive - which certainly is not the suggestion in the text, by the way - that would still leave the shield well above Logain's strength.

Except Cadsuane says in tGS that two women of the weakest rungs of the Aes Sedai can easily hold the shield on Semirhage. Two fairly weak Aes Sedai do in fact hold a shield on Nynaeve. So what do we take as the measure of strength: ability to shield opposite gender or ability to shield the same gender?

All told, there seems to be quite a bit of fluidity to shielding. Nynaeve sheilds Talaan, but is unable to shield Elayne. Maybe she was concentrating more at one time than the other.


For him to be break free of it, he would have to EXCEED its strength significantly, as RJ repeatedly stated in the books.

For same gender shielding. And the wording has always been to the effect that breaking a shield is tricky anyway. You need overwhelmingly superior strength to have a guarantee of breaking a shield, is all we can say, I think, and gender differences bring more complexities to this.
A weaker person can hold a shield once it is in place. So for Logain to even stand a chance of breaking free from a shield, he has to exceed its strength significantly.

We don't know that for cross-gender shields, as far as I remember.
Look at the circle Arangar was facing at the Cleansing. 4 channelers. And it was a close run battle.

As was the one on one between Cyndane and an obviously much stronger Alivia.
The Graendal/Verin battle was skewed slightly by the unknown strengths of the opposing angreal, but even so, Graendal's angreal is stated to be quite weak. And again, it was a close run thing.

And Graendal versus Moghedien and Cyndane was a no contest. There are degrees of skill and issues like surprise involved quite clearly.
Aviendha stating that Egwene was as strong as Amys and Melaine combined.

Was patently wrong. We have this from Elza:

Cadsuane must have had an angreal of her own, from the amount of saidar she was drawing, more than Elza and Merise combined, yet even that paled beside the Power that flowed though Callandor.
Cadsuane, we know, is barely weaker than Egwene. Merise is either as strong as, or just weaker than, Amys. Elza is definitely weaker than Melaine. Yet, for Cadsuane to be drawing more than Merise and Elza, she
had to have an angreal, according to Elza. Isn't that much stronger proof than Aviendha's vague, and uneducated statement?


The list goes on and on.

A mostly refutable list, I think.
The point is, Moiraine being at 80% the strength of Lanfear utterly makes a mockery of the carefully crafted impression RJ created of how a Forsaken level channeler matches up against a modern Sister, and makes the above examples incompatible with the strength list.

Now, I'm not saying that Moiraine is definitely 80% of Lanfear's strength. But if it turns out that way, I'd have no trouble accepting it. I never did put as much stock at some of those character statements like you did.
That's why I'm waiting for actual notes on the actual comparative strength between some known channelers, because it would be very interesting to see how RJ reconciles this with the text.

He probably does so by pointing out characters are wrong all the time, and what matters is actual events and observations, not suppositions and statements.
Reply to message
One Power strength: New information from RJ's notes - 01/05/2014 11:39:32 PM 4168 Views
interesting. i wonder what else they'll dig up - 01/05/2014 11:46:19 PM 1546 Views
College of Charleston library - 02/05/2014 12:21:01 AM 1633 Views
Still... really cool, thanks! *NM* - 03/05/2014 06:35:05 PM 834 Views
Mesaana - 02/05/2014 12:26:19 AM 1615 Views
Re: Mesaana - 02/05/2014 12:37:52 AM 1637 Views
Danelle - 02/05/2014 12:59:51 AM 1551 Views
Interesting... - 02/05/2014 05:13:44 PM 1615 Views
Re: Mesaana - 26/05/2015 10:21:33 PM 1159 Views
Bringing it all together... - 02/05/2014 10:34:12 AM 1549 Views
Can't accept that, sorry... - 02/05/2014 03:17:05 PM 1562 Views
How that CAN be interpreted however, is... - 02/05/2014 03:38:38 PM 1280 Views
Sorry, no... - 02/05/2014 06:00:56 PM 1313 Views
Here are some key flaws, unfortunately... - 02/05/2014 07:56:53 PM 1197 Views
Sorry, you're mistaking the Tower for the world... - 02/05/2014 09:50:23 PM 1245 Views
Re: Sorry, you're mistaking the Tower for the world... - 02/05/2014 09:59:45 PM 1257 Views
Not totally accurate - 17/05/2015 11:15:30 PM 1145 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 05/06/2015 03:23:08 PM 1158 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 05/06/2015 08:22:13 PM 1121 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 05/06/2015 09:16:51 PM 1300 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 06/06/2015 03:48:34 PM 1127 Views
Re: How that CAN be interpreted however, is... - 02/05/2014 09:39:06 PM 1443 Views
Thanks DomA. The problem is simple.. - 02/05/2014 09:57:37 PM 1308 Views
Ahh, the Rand with Egwene and Elayne scene... - 02/05/2014 10:19:05 PM 1468 Views
Re: Thanks DomA. The problem is simple.. - 02/05/2014 10:45:12 PM 1415 Views
About that... - 02/05/2014 10:48:18 PM 1227 Views
Re: About that... - 02/05/2014 11:12:01 PM 1362 Views
Re: About that... - 17/05/2015 03:07:22 AM 1139 Views
Re: Thanks DomA. The problem is simple.. - 05/06/2015 03:16:50 PM 1234 Views
Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 02/05/2014 10:24:02 PM 1282 Views
Re: Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 02/05/2014 11:09:16 PM 1171 Views
Re: Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 02/05/2014 11:36:55 PM 1326 Views
More on Aiel learners - 03/05/2014 12:46:19 AM 1307 Views
Interesting. - 03/05/2014 02:32:23 AM 1221 Views
Re: Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 03/05/2014 01:02:23 AM 1323 Views
Oh... - 03/05/2014 02:35:08 AM 1280 Views
Re: Oh... - 03/05/2014 04:29:34 AM 1804 Views
Can you clarify something here Dom/Terez? - 07/05/2014 01:31:54 AM 1292 Views
Re: Can you clarify something here Dom/Terez? - 07/05/2014 02:59:42 AM 1437 Views
Thanks Dom, I'm genuinely puzzled, though... - 07/05/2014 09:04:08 AM 1344 Views
Some things to consider... - 07/05/2014 11:22:46 PM 1196 Views
Re: Some things to consider... - 17/05/2015 03:32:22 AM 1103 Views
Vegeta! What does the scouter say about his power level? - 02/05/2014 04:38:59 PM 1214 Views
mmm, Vegeta *NM* - 03/05/2014 08:32:36 AM 824 Views
Sorilea and comments on the general structure of the notes - 02/05/2014 09:20:26 PM 1511 Views
Is there any reference whatsoever about strength multiples? - 02/05/2014 09:34:50 PM 1385 Views
I will let you know if I see something like that... - 02/05/2014 10:20:46 PM 1267 Views
Thanks. Because it will solve the entire riddle - 03/05/2014 11:04:31 PM 1348 Views
Re: Thanks. Because it will solve the entire riddle - 04/05/2014 06:16:52 AM 1393 Views
Interesting... - 04/05/2014 08:14:19 AM 1409 Views
Re: Interesting... - 05/05/2014 04:08:41 PM 1320 Views
LOL! - 02/05/2014 09:46:11 PM 1399 Views
More info on Sorilea - 02/05/2014 10:04:50 PM 1530 Views
This is great! - 02/05/2014 10:23:31 PM 1459 Views
In the original he might have kissed her. - 03/05/2014 12:49:53 AM 1305 Views
Having read some of his other books with sex, I've always been curious about this. - 05/05/2014 02:53:00 PM 1498 Views
Easy answer - 10/05/2014 02:49:53 PM 1232 Views
Can't argue with that! - 18/05/2014 12:31:01 AM 1364 Views
Therava/Galina - 10/05/2014 02:58:09 PM 1829 Views
Came across one of the oldest strength lists I'd seen... - 02/05/2014 10:46:29 PM 1338 Views
#10 seems weird. An Aes Sedai who never reached her full potential? - 03/05/2014 06:43:41 PM 1429 Views
Not weird. There is a good reason. - 03/05/2014 09:30:40 PM 1479 Views
One question... - 03/05/2014 09:44:35 PM 1422 Views
yes to both *NM* - 03/05/2014 10:49:29 PM 896 Views
Suian? - 04/05/2014 04:50:32 PM 1374 Views
Does not meet the criteria I gave. *NM* - 10/05/2014 05:23:27 AM 771 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 11/05/2014 05:49:31 AM 1289 Views
Not someone who was severed, burned out, or anything like that. *NM* - 11/05/2014 01:27:28 PM 816 Views
Did she join the Aes Sedai especially early or late in life? - 11/05/2014 01:47:27 PM 1292 Views
no... - 11/05/2014 04:27:07 PM 1178 Views
Wild guess... - 11/05/2014 06:51:27 PM 1239 Views
One of Terez's criteria - 11/05/2014 09:24:57 PM 1209 Views
Hmmm... - 12/05/2014 08:51:33 AM 1176 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 13/05/2014 06:14:12 PM 1344 Views
Even I don't know what Dom is talking about. *NM* - 13/05/2014 06:24:23 PM 778 Views
Does it have anything to do with the Sharans? - 13/05/2014 10:35:45 PM 1224 Views
no - 14/05/2014 07:52:27 AM 1220 Views
Wasn't there a Sister who was a Queen or sister to a King or something like that... - 13/05/2014 09:26:02 PM 1288 Views
Kiruna... - 13/05/2014 10:34:32 PM 1198 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 13/05/2014 10:38:05 PM 1142 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 14/05/2014 04:09:42 AM 1210 Views
Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 14/05/2014 04:37:20 AM 1286 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 14/05/2014 07:55:20 AM 1262 Views
- 14/05/2014 08:14:05 AM 1188 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 15/05/2014 03:59:02 AM 1335 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 16/05/2014 04:06:02 PM 1193 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 17/05/2014 03:01:25 AM 1314 Views
Perhaps Romanda? - 05/06/2015 04:22:31 PM 1186 Views
Re: Perhaps Romanda? - 05/06/2015 08:39:31 PM 1012 Views
Re: Wild guess... - 12/05/2014 05:33:53 AM 1289 Views
Alternatively, someone who went to live in Far Madding... - 12/05/2014 12:08:07 PM 1279 Views
That was one of my guesses... - 12/05/2014 04:57:56 PM 1108 Views
Redirect to my initial "Not weird" post. *NM* - 12/05/2014 06:59:02 PM 786 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 20/05/2014 02:23:13 AM 1193 Views
Lots of no *NM* - 20/05/2014 02:30:25 AM 796 Views
You're killing me. - 20/05/2014 02:55:21 AM 1206 Views
I won't just tell you :p But... - 20/05/2014 10:31:27 AM 1300 Views
Wild speculation - 20/05/2014 01:39:52 PM 1208 Views
Could it be Verin who always used her angreal? - 20/05/2014 02:07:30 PM 1184 Views
Hmmm - 20/05/2014 03:37:57 PM 1221 Views
Well, I'm not saying she did it to appear weaker... - 20/05/2014 03:48:10 PM 1108 Views
The buffer - 20/05/2014 04:10:58 PM 1208 Views
I doubt using an angreal means you don't progress in natural strength - 20/05/2014 06:02:00 PM 1381 Views
Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 20/05/2014 11:53:11 PM 1246 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 21/05/2014 01:55:15 AM 1179 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 22/05/2014 02:33:30 AM 1247 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 22/05/2014 05:04:00 AM 1287 Views
So... - 22/05/2014 05:12:48 AM 1173 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 22/05/2014 11:55:38 AM 1176 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 24/05/2014 02:07:01 AM 1198 Views
I didn't say that - 24/05/2014 11:24:30 PM 1268 Views
Re: I didn't say that - 25/05/2014 02:32:46 PM 1213 Views
did she deliberately keep her growth slow? A small theory too - 17/05/2015 11:54:28 PM 1144 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 05:49:42 PM 1197 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 06:05:28 PM 1072 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 06:23:28 PM 1212 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 08:37:20 PM 1041 Views
I think this will be in the Encyclopedia, so... - 10/06/2015 03:06:42 PM 1168 Views
you are such a tease *NM* - 10/06/2015 09:05:10 PM 614 Views
Why doesn't someone... - 24/05/2014 11:25:51 PM 1388 Views
Favourite part about this post... - 12/05/2014 07:12:51 AM 1405 Views
With regard to #10- does it involve the Oath Rod, in some way? - 15/05/2014 02:53:45 PM 1212 Views
no *NM* - 15/05/2014 07:16:16 PM 755 Views
Oh, I know! It's the Sea Folk Aes Sedai! - 17/05/2014 01:32:04 PM 1275 Views
Re: Oh, I know! It's the Sea Folk Aes Sedai! - 17/05/2014 08:45:59 PM 1299 Views
An Aes Sedai who was sent away from the Tower? - 17/05/2014 10:01:44 PM 1296 Views
Again, no reason to think this Aes Sedai did not channel often. *NM* - 18/05/2014 04:32:06 AM 793 Views
Did the Aes Sedai live in relative seclusion, did she have a Warder, and did that Warder die? *NM* - 20/05/2014 06:03:04 PM 915 Views
Too specific - 20/05/2014 11:51:25 PM 1270 Views
Re: Too specific - 21/05/2014 05:32:32 AM 1164 Views
You think THAT isn't specific? *NM* - 22/05/2014 02:41:53 AM 803 Views
It's a fine mess that no one can work out - 09/06/2014 09:20:56 AM 1401 Views
Re: It's a fine mess that no one can work out - 04/06/2015 08:48:20 PM 1278 Views

Reply to Message