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That's a poor excuse rAndy aL Send a noteboard - 02/10/2009 11:59:42 AM
I would have loved to pummel Elayne after she gets her AS killed by the black ajah and then talks about how she's sad but not guilty. That there was no way to know they were there. Bullshit! It's called thorough surveillance.


Read New Spring and Lord of Chaos. Moiraine scoffs at the liklihood of Lan & Bukama spying on a sister undetected, and they are both elite, highly trained warriors, used to sneaking up on Shadowspawn on their own turf. Surveillance my ass. And read what Niall says about his rules for information: "Never wait to know everything. The man who waited to know everything was still sitting in his tent when the enemy burned it over his head." Elayne has learned that a very dangerous man was inserted into her entourage using murder as a diversion, and that he reports to someone who commands the services of two black sisters. What about that scenario tells you to "wait and see" and look around some more?! This is a blatantly obvious scenario and the only way anyone can find any fault in her actions (fault I notice that no one, from a Hero of the Horn of Valere, to a Black Sister who would have seized on ANY reasoanble excuse to delay the operation, to a woman who is possibly the most experienced living member of the "Battle Ajah" could find in the mission going into it) is through hindsight. There was no way to anticipate a group no one knew was even in the city coming to the aid of Shiane's cell. If someone read Shiane's & her Black pets & Hanlon's minds, they would not have known Chesmal, Asne & co. were keeping an eye out. The Forsaken themselves didn't know what that group was up to. What was Elayne supposed to do? Allow several more Kinswomen to be murdered while waiting to see if "surveillance" would turn up any more Black sisters in the city? Elayne didn't even know if she would still hold the city for the next few days, as she was already anticipating an attack by numbers she could not match on a bribed gate in the near future! Was she supposed to take a chance on letting the very women she had been sent out of the Tower to pursue out of her hands? Even if she thought there were more Black sisters, sitting around like a little chickenshit wotmaniac was simply not an option. She had no way of knowing they might have an AoL weapon that could take channelers out in a second with no warning. If her going after the Black sisters was foolhardy, what do you call Rand going after the Forsaken when everyone had to be assuming they had access to AoL tech if anyone did?

Basically Elayne took every possible precaution, and the price she paid was cheap for what she got. Half a dozen Black sisters out of action, the traitor in her group exposed and eliminated, Adeleas avenged, a pair of high-ranking Darkfriends in custody, and for no more than a useless Brown who is a rather bad judge of character and possessed of no particular assets. It was obvious from the time Adeleas died that Vandene was on a suicide run and would not long survive uncovering her sister's killer. Elayne no more got her killed than Adeleas did.

What should she have done to prevent what happened? Bring more sis- oh wait! She didn't have anyone else? Bring the Kin? With no combat experience, they'd have been liabilities. More troops? How could soldiers of Kinswomen have stopped the Black sisters from sneaking up on them, and killing them where they stood? The only reason Vandene lived long enough to avenge her sister or Sareitha lived long enough to groan, was that they were in the field of fire with Elayne, whom the Black sisters wanted alive. Asne boasted of her weapon's capabilities - she could have killed all four sisters just as easily as she stunned them. She could have done the same to a cordon of guards, and if they had brought Birgitte & the other warders in, Birgitte would have joined the casualty lists. Absolutely NOTHING Elayne could have done could have stopped what happened aside from racking up a higher body count for the good guys, aside from arresting Chesmal & friends thanks to some magical intuition of their presence in Caemlyn.

This blaming Elayne for not being omnipotent is really tiresome, considering it flys in the face of actual proven events.


Suppose it wasn't the BA with some sort of riduculous weapon. It could easily have been a man with a knife and they would have still been unprepared. Elayne went in effectively alone, and was forced into a situation where she and Vandene had to watch (potentially) 5 darkfriends. Some sort of scouting to make sure there was nobody else in the building would have been a good idea.

Even if she couldn't have trusted the Warders and couldn't take 5 minutes to Travel to Rand and do some recruiting, she still could have taken some of her bodyguard to watch the house. They could have dealt with most of the more likely potential threats and could have at least warned her that something was up, if only by the sound of their bodies hitting the ground. It's a small cost compared to the possible future Queen being captured.

In the end, it's pointless to argue about the main characters' military abilities because they are far too young and too sheltered to have experience. Rand and Mat are the only ones who have experience, thanks to other memories, but the others are going to make mistakes. Repeatedly.
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Are women really bad generals? - 01/10/2009 07:05:03 PM 1447 Views
I think that all we can conclude from this... - 01/10/2009 07:39:49 PM 741 Views
No. - 01/10/2009 07:41:35 PM 859 Views
Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... - 01/10/2009 08:40:47 PM 961 Views
Lol... too true - 01/10/2009 09:32:29 PM 857 Views
And you guys whine about the lameness of RJ's villains? - 01/10/2009 09:41:54 PM 846 Views
I still haven't seen proof of Demandred or Ishamael's "brilliance". - 01/10/2009 09:56:41 PM 698 Views
Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice - 02/10/2009 04:25:37 AM 668 Views
Re: Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice - 02/10/2009 03:48:13 PM 594 Views
but you are difficult to please - 02/10/2009 05:10:13 AM 652 Views
Re: but you are difficult to please - 02/10/2009 03:46:56 PM 588 Views
Re: but you are difficult to please - 03/10/2009 06:17:21 AM 608 Views
But they are lame... they've done minimal damage to the Light - 02/10/2009 05:06:05 AM 599 Views
You can't have it both ways.... - 02/10/2009 06:47:21 AM 679 Views
Why not? - 02/10/2009 08:45:35 AM 641 Views
Re: Why not? - 02/10/2009 04:27:00 PM 540 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 06:34:16 AM 677 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 07:40:16 AM 612 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 05:07:51 PM 583 Views
Yeah - 01/10/2009 09:57:01 PM 627 Views
Re: Yeah - 01/10/2009 10:40:28 PM 658 Views
I thought the same in the past... - 02/10/2009 07:01:18 AM 651 Views
Gah! Hate! - 02/10/2009 04:11:49 PM 658 Views
Ah, come on... - 02/10/2009 04:41:37 PM 625 Views
No no, I was just being pouty that I haven't read the new stuff yet. - 02/10/2009 05:01:15 PM 627 Views
Yeah, I can understand that! - 03/10/2009 12:23:25 PM 507 Views
Unless... - 01/10/2009 10:49:55 PM 700 Views
Re: Unless... - 02/10/2009 05:07:14 AM 728 Views
Well, it's entirely hypothetical, - 02/10/2009 06:31:32 AM 605 Views
Re: Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... - 01/10/2009 09:51:30 PM 724 Views
What about Mat and Ituralde? - 02/10/2009 04:28:49 AM 667 Views
Re: What about Mat and Ituralde? - 02/10/2009 03:52:24 PM 622 Views
Good points! Also, these "generals" haven't actually fielded any troops - 01/10/2009 11:23:40 PM 603 Views
Further... - 02/10/2009 12:14:44 AM 636 Views
But as individuals they are meant to be deadly too - 02/10/2009 05:09:21 AM 594 Views
Just one point ^_^ - 03/10/2009 12:51:50 AM 609 Views
nope - 01/10/2009 08:06:57 PM 752 Views
Re: nope - 01/10/2009 09:32:38 PM 816 Views
Tylee Kirgan, Birgitte, and one other, Egeanin - 01/10/2009 09:47:00 PM 1022 Views
Birgitte's not a soldier though. - 01/10/2009 10:10:50 PM 610 Views
She says she's not, but so does Mat. - 01/10/2009 10:34:04 PM 535 Views
Mat's not a soldier, either - he's a general - 01/10/2009 10:51:29 PM 680 Views
Right, which was what we were discussing at first. - 02/10/2009 04:13:43 PM 606 Views
Yeah, I'm supporting your point about them both being generals - 02/10/2009 06:10:31 PM 625 Views
true, but she does pretty good - 02/10/2009 01:06:03 AM 678 Views
Oooh I forgot she's in charge of Elayne's lady guards. - 02/10/2009 03:22:57 AM 551 Views
Egeanin or Leilwin - 01/10/2009 10:35:53 PM 747 Views
A ship captain is like a calvary general - 02/10/2009 01:24:37 AM 613 Views
Right. - 02/10/2009 01:36:59 AM 596 Views
Well said. (And its short and to the point.) - 02/10/2009 03:54:23 AM 733 Views
Birgitte is too cautious to be better than an adequate tactician. - 02/10/2009 04:22:45 AM 660 Views
Isn't this more of an outgrowth or her respective specialty? - 07/10/2009 08:40:46 PM 567 Views
My opinion - 02/10/2009 01:30:12 AM 1034 Views
That's a poor excuse - 02/10/2009 11:59:42 AM 562 Views
That's a poor argument - 02/10/2009 04:02:53 PM 762 Views
Re: That's a poor argument - 03/10/2009 04:26:55 AM 638 Views
I disagree - 02/10/2009 04:26:28 PM 653 Views
Re: I disagree - 02/10/2009 08:31:29 PM 849 Views
Oh, puh-lease. - 02/10/2009 09:09:30 PM 800 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 03/10/2009 04:52:37 PM 630 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 03/10/2009 08:26:27 PM 520 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 05/10/2009 05:08:27 PM 3077 Views
I always know I've out-argued an idiot when they fall back on the tired old "RJ wanted it that way" - 06/10/2009 04:42:11 AM 667 Views
um - 08/10/2009 07:36:52 PM 903 Views
Monday morning quarterbacking at its worst - 04/10/2009 07:28:36 AM 717 Views
Men and football. - 05/10/2009 04:49:35 PM 634 Views
It's the only thing men are allowed to do in Randland - 02/10/2009 03:09:19 AM 644 Views
My thoughts - 02/10/2009 03:12:46 PM 575 Views
.... - 04/10/2009 03:38:44 AM 562 Views

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