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Re: Hey, looks like I finally read it. Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 20/08/2013 01:04:39 AM

View original postThat's a really interesting way of putting it, and it does a good job. From what other people, more knowledgable about the writing mechanics, have said this sort of thing can probably be blamed on Sanderson.

I expect so. It's been a long time since I read the books, but at the very least I remember the Seanchan campaign from The Path of Daggers kept switching to PoVs from either side, which helped provide the impression that both sides were active. Even with the Forsaken, who have earned a reputation for ineptitude, usually when they were attacked, they had a fallback plan in order to attempt to regain the initiative. Ishamael and Rahvin fled to Tel'aran'rhiod, Sammael to Shadar Logoth. With Demandred it felt very much like he was the final boss at the end of the level. Hell, I have no idea how Galad is supposed to have reached him at the centre of the Shadow army. Gawyn had his Bloodknife rings, Logain Travelled, Lan charged through ranks of Trollocs with the aid of the Two Rivers archers... how did Galad get there?


View original postWith that in mind, when Sanderson has a character say the same thing, all he is doing is telling the readers that something was clever. Sometimes I felt like people were only telling each other how clever a character or plan was, because Sanderson doesn't know how to show you a clever plan.

Yes, I agree. Though to be fair, sometime Jordan provided us with some informed abilities as well. Particularly Morgase's supposed brilliance.


View original postI think the Elayne storyline in ToM might have been made into a bigger deal through Sanderson's writing than Jordan would have made it. I don't think Jordan would have needed so many chapters to do it, and it might have been one of those things happening in the background, with maybe an exposition character telling Rand "Oh, you just might want to know, Elayne's been crowned in Cairhien, she has half the nobles of each country bound to her by estates in the other nation, and she's rallying the troops for Merilor. Word is, she's going to be supporting the Amyrlin instead of you..."

I agree.


View original postAnd speaking of Elayne, Rand found out he's going to be a father off-screen? Seriously?

Seriously!


View original postAnother excellent example! This is something I bet would have been totally missing from WoT if Sanderson had wrote it from the beginning. From the one fight scene I read in Mistborn, he loves the fight coreography (and he's pretty good at it, but that's neither here nor there). But you're right - that's what I mean about Jordan conveying an impression with fewer words, that surprisingly vivid despite being short of specifics.

Sometimes I get the impression that some writers would rather be writing movies. Battles in the books, at least in my opinion, are important in how they affect the people who participate in them, I suspect that's why, as you pointed out, a lot of the time Jordan's battles were presented from the chaotic perspective of those participating in them, because what's important is to know their fears, their excitement, their resolution. Not the tactical movements going on.

There's one fight I really like from George Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. It's the duel between Oberyn Martell and Gregor Clegane for Tyrion's trial. The battle is presented from Tyrion's PoV, though he's just a spectator. Though he and Oberyn are both hoping Gregor is taken down, they have very different motives, and a significant part of the suspense comes from realising that Oberyn could kill Gregor, but he's not doing so because he wants him to confess first. It's the realisation that Tyrion's fate is entirely out of his hands, and the one who does have it under his power doesn't care at all. Blow by blow description is used, but while it's still filler, it's intended as filler as it draws out the suspense.


View original postThat said, I still liked how the battle was written, and it had the feel of an epic, world-wide, all-or-nothing titanic struggle. Not Jordan, but it got the job done.

Yeah, I was fine with it. Though unlike you, I really felt that the battle was smaller than it should be. I know someone on Wotmania had a map with the locations and sizes of every army in the Westland as of whatever book it was, but I can't seem to find it. I did find though. It estimates about four hundred thousand Aiel, a hundred and fifty thousand Andorans, a very small force of Domani, thirty thousand men in the Band of the Red Hand, two hundred thousand Borderlanders who went south to find Rand, plus the twelve thousand who joined Lan, thirty thousand Cairhienin, eighty thousand Illianers, seventy thousand Legion of the Dragon, seventy thousand mixed forces in Perrin's army, ninety thousand Tairens, less than one hundred thousand Tower Guard, if Bryne's rebel army is included, and the mysterious Murandian army. All told, over one million two hundred thousand troops of varying degrees of skill. Though presumably some forces would be left behind to guard their nations. Then again, this is not the impression we got when the Trollocs attacked Cairhien during the split armies segment.

As for channelers, Rand sent a hundred Asha'man with Ituralde to fight at Maradon. That force alone is larger than the combined channeling division at Thakan'dar, and they're not included in whatever happened at the Black Tower. The page linked above expects seven hundred men at the Black Tower, and Demandred says that Taim had a hundred pet Asha'man, so unless the off-screen battle for the Black Tower was far more bloody than anybody ever bothered to tell us, there should be hundreds of Asha'man available. It also gives at most two hundred and twenty Aes Sedai, Novices and Accepted excluded. If we extrapolate from the two hundred Shaido Wise One channelers, there should be over two thousand channeling Wise Ones in Rand's army - which is more than five times the number of Ayyad Demandred gloats about.

I wasn't paying attention that much, and don't really feel like trying to locate the information in the two hundred page The Last Battle chapter, but there were moments when I certainly felt like these were not the numbers we were dealing with. For example, during Elayne's section of the split armies segment when her forces are skirmishing with the Trollocs in the forest. Maybe these were just skirmishers and don't represent what most of the army was doing, but Elayne's Captain-General was with them, and Elayne herself kept moving her command tent among hiding places in the woods. Is this normal for an army of several hundred thousands? What really got my attention though was the lack of mention from the forces of Tear and Illian, both very powerful nations, probably comparable to Andor. The Companions and Defenders of the Stone were occasionally mentioned, but only as small elite units. What happened to these armies? Meanwhile Perrin's force, while respectable when combined, but it kept getting described as its components - the Wolf Guard, the Whitecloaks, the Mayeners and Ghealdanin - appeared to represent something approximating half the forces on Merrilor, while they were in fact a few tens of thousands in an army of hundreds of thousands. Obviously at this point they'd all suffered casualties from the earlier battles, but still.


View original postNope. I've been saying for years they were at most a red herring, and more accurrately, they were an illustration of the theme of misremembered history and how even things that were not true can motivate people in a powerful way. The Tinkers have been stubbornly clinging to their beliefs and lifestyle and traveling the world for 3,000 years looking for a song that did not ever exist, when what they were actually remembering was simply an agricultural aid. It would be like us having an apocalypse and 3,000 years from now, people are wandering the world looking for the holy elixir of "Insecticide" or "Manure" that will bring back the good old days.

Oh, I knew it wouldn't be important to Tarmon Gai'don, but I expected it to be something that would help rebuild after, like Rand's Dragon's Peace. Also, I'm pretty sure I remember something about Aiel men only ever singing in battle, and I don't recall this coming up either.



Yeah, but why? It just sort of happened. This isn't A Song of Ice and Fire, I expect a reason behind a character's death. Here we just sort of turned around and she was dead. Hell, if she'd died offscreen and her name appeared in Rand's list, I'd have understood it better than the way it happened here.


View original postTam was awesome, although I would like to give Cadsuane props for recognizing he was right and taking it like a grownup instead of just punishing him anyway to save face, like 99% of her sisters would have done.

Oh, definitely. It also ties back to how Cadsuane broke Semirhage earlier, obviously, and it demonstrates the difference between the two. Cadsuane is stronger than Semirhage was.


View original postI like to think that after realizing what a drag it is riding through a depopulated land ravaged by war, eventually Rand will seek out his friends and loved ones and let them know he's not dead but keep it quiet please? And included in that would be establishing a relationship with his brother (who's probably missing his only other brother, although since that's Gawyn, I can't for the life of me figure out why) and his offspring.

I should hope so. Also, I get the impression that Galad never had any friends. I mean, Taringail's children were all royalty, so obviously none of them had friends, but I think it was even worse with Galad. So it would matter to him that Gawyn actually liked him. You don't choose your family.

The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
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Which reminds me... - 23/08/2013 06:09:14 PM 848 Views
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Re: Hey, looks like I finally read it. - 22/08/2013 04:24:19 AM 1034 Views
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I wish I had something to add - 22/08/2013 07:26:07 PM 774 Views
Well, that's still something . *NM* - 23/08/2013 03:35:41 AM 385 Views
I agree... - 23/08/2013 08:47:07 PM 745 Views
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That's pretty impressive! - 27/10/2013 04:18:10 AM 842 Views
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