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Just off color Nargs Send a noteboard - 19/01/2013 10:03:58 PM

I do not buy that regardless though; her dad never plays those kinds of juvenile manipulative games with Rand. I would say she behaves like a spoiled teenager, but the simile is ruined by her being literally rather than figuratively just that.

Her father is not a female in that culture. So many of her POVs refer to her culture as the reason for her behavior.

"There was nothing to be done" is a CLASSIC attempted excuse for passively and silently watching tragedies unfold. We can never be sure nothing she did could have prevented it because "nothing" is all she attempted. I might cut her some slack for trying and failing, but NOT trying and failing is inexcusable.

Had she jumped in and tried to stop him - that would not have been believable. Imagine the emotions and shock and disbelief running through her at that moment. I cannot fault her for freezing. Maybe you can.

Going south would have taken longer, but at least would not have been marching up to the DOs doorstep and hoping an ally found her instead of him or his Shadowspawn legions.

Thats the point! It would have taken longer. She fails. She knew that.

Oh, gee, marching the Horn of Valere straight toward Shayol Ghul during Tarmon Gaidon got me captured by Shadowspawn; gee, who could have foreseen THAT?

She didn't get captured on her way to Shayol Ghul.

No, she did NOT "happen[] upon a situation that would allow them to get back immediately," and the proof is that THEY DID NOT; when Perrin found her under a pile of bodies later she was still in the middle of Shayol Ghul.

You have it all wrong. (Page 752,753 - Faile ended up at Merrilor) & (Page 902 - Perrin found her at Merrilor) Maybe you should reread the book... a little slower.

Taking warhorses to a warzone is not exactly attention getting. Neither is a courier taking a racehorse. Taking Bela only makes sense for the reason I said: Greater carrying capacity and endurance. Still, a bred military packhorse would have been far better, and a pack animal in a baggage train is as pedestrian as it gets.

Wow. No response.

Yes, because that is the ONLY circumstance under which a ta'veren wife might need to make a fast getaway while carrying the Horn of Valere to ANOTHER ta'veren during Tarmon Gaidon. But then, Faile does not seem familiar with the better and more discrete part of valor; often, that is precisely her problem.

You know what? I am done.... no more.

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Somehow, I Actually Hate Faile MORE Now Joel - 14/01/2013 12:16:05 PM 3031 Views

Faile made Perrin less interesting Isaac - 14/01/2013 01:15:22 PM 1054 Views

She paralyzed his character development even when Jordan thought she advanced it. Joel - 14/01/2013 02:38:29 PM 1151 Views

I skipped those chapters during my re-read The Doctor - 14/01/2013 10:36:11 PM 1281 Views

I do not blame you, but that practically means skipping TPoD through KoD. Joel - 15/01/2013 06:16:17 AM 978 Views

Re: She paralyzed his character development even when Jordan thought she advanced it. Zalvera - 15/01/2013 12:39:23 AM 1007 Views

You just hit on probably the major structural weakness of the series with respect to characters. Tom - 15/01/2013 02:54:59 AM 1010 Views

I think this is why I still enjoy Rand as a character so much IndigoAjahV2 - 15/01/2013 03:37:52 AM 962 Views

There were plenty of hard choices, but they might have been handled better. Joel - 15/01/2013 06:58:30 AM 1108 Views

Though I too have wished for them to make really hard choices... Cannoli - 15/01/2013 09:37:34 AM 1059 Views

But they DO make hard choices; they just face relatively few hard consequences. Joel - 15/01/2013 10:08:19 AM 909 Views

Rand certainly flirted with the moral Event Horizon a few times, so did some of the others Isaac - 15/01/2013 10:33:23 AM 1100 Views

Mostly it's because it's clear in RJ's eyes that doing something like the things you suggest is wron IndigoAjahV2 - 15/01/2013 12:41:03 PM 989 Views

You obviously have a much lower threshold than I do in defining "hard choices". *NM* Tom - 15/01/2013 03:47:52 PM 514 Views

We are introduced to them as they choose between abandoning home w/ a stranger v. staying to die Joel - 15/01/2013 04:46:02 PM 941 Views

Joel, I just said I disagreed with you. I didn't want to debate this series for the sake of debate. *NM* Tom - 15/01/2013 05:43:55 PM 491 Views

Also, how is choosing not to die a hard choice? Tom - 15/01/2013 05:46:46 PM 838 Views

Because they had only a strange witchs word they would die, and leaving w/ her was perilous, too. Joel - 15/01/2013 06:17:16 PM 851 Views

And a trolloc attack Tom - 16/01/2013 02:28:00 PM 853 Views

True, but there was considerable debate about who brought whom. Joel - 16/01/2013 04:41:35 PM 968 Views

Jordan said he put some of himself in all the ta'veren, but its clearly strongest with Perrin. Joel - 15/01/2013 06:27:10 AM 984 Views

I'm glad you have seen the Truth. Tom - 14/01/2013 01:35:36 PM 974 Views

It was neck and neck with her and Min for a long while, but Min finally saw past her own nose. Joel - 14/01/2013 02:09:13 PM 952 Views

I just added a sentence at the end to make the series end properly. Tom - 14/01/2013 10:47:18 PM 1045 Views

Works for me. Joel - 15/01/2013 06:13:16 AM 1982 Views

In all fairness Egwene did in fact pay homage to Bela darius_sedai - 14/01/2013 08:36:40 PM 916 Views

Bela has been there for Egwene all the time. fionwe1987 - 14/01/2013 10:16:22 PM 1133 Views

Egwene and Bela Aes_Gesserit - 15/01/2013 08:13:17 AM 888 Views

I thought Noal was riding Bela... *NM* Tom - 14/01/2013 10:47:56 PM 473 Views

I did, too, at first, but "horse"=/="pony." Joel - 15/01/2013 06:08:03 AM 864 Views

I think she fed her an apple once in TV or somewhere, too, but otherwise she ignored her. Joel - 15/01/2013 06:12:26 AM 1038 Views

Dramatic much? Bella lived a good life in TV and later in Salidar darius_sedai - 20/01/2013 12:54:15 AM 7727 Views

Actually, I never understood why people LOVE that horse so much. She is just a horse! *NM* aragornital - 15/01/2013 07:52:29 AM 539 Views

Pony. She is a pony. A loyal, goodnatured, overperforming and underappreciated pony. Joel - 15/01/2013 08:32:21 AM 999 Views

honestly a child and a horse and you think the kid should be butchered? darius_sedai - 20/01/2013 12:58:32 AM 985 Views

The whole series is based upon the love of Bela and Narg and her struggle to come to terms with his MightyYT - 16/01/2013 04:01:59 AM 785 Views

The real problem echooff - 15/01/2013 11:30:37 AM 921 Views

Faile will surely domineer someone into pulling Tams carts for him. Joel - 15/01/2013 03:04:35 PM 894 Views

The women in WoT are monsters Sidious - 15/01/2013 11:59:39 AM 1376 Views

I do not consider most of the others all that bad, just idiosyncratic. Joel - 15/01/2013 03:05:51 PM 1177 Views

Oh...I think we know :-) *NM* echooff - 16/01/2013 04:31:18 PM 571 Views

I try to give them, or rather her, the benefit of a doubt. Joel - 16/01/2013 04:48:22 PM 842 Views

Re: Tuon Zalvera - 15/01/2013 03:33:34 PM 1112 Views

I had not noticed that before, but you are right. Joel - 15/01/2013 07:45:53 PM 879 Views

I agree completely... lilltempest - 15/01/2013 05:19:40 PM 1137 Views

Not to argue, but I think RJ created a world where women had the power darius_sedai - 20/01/2013 01:17:11 AM 993 Views

Agreed ... Nynaeve and Lan are the closest thing to "Healthy" in the series darius_sedai - 20/01/2013 01:09:29 AM 833 Views

Tell me then... Nargs - 18/01/2013 09:08:08 AM 901 Views

That's a fallacious question Tom - 18/01/2013 03:21:56 PM 985 Views

Are you saying... Nargs - 18/01/2013 09:21:34 PM 904 Views

That is a pathetic answer. Tom - 19/01/2013 04:56:13 AM 845 Views

You're a pathetic ass Nargs - 19/01/2013 06:48:47 AM 885 Views

LOL - that's funny, coming from you, one of the most pathetic fanboys around here. *NM* Tom - 19/01/2013 02:32:18 PM 442 Views

Sad for you. *NM* Nargs - 19/01/2013 09:24:59 PM 467 Views

Oh, gosh, this could take a while. Joel - 18/01/2013 05:58:15 PM 935 Views

How exactly was Faile the cause for Hopper's death? Zeratul - 19/01/2013 12:31:55 AM 848 Views

Because her kidnapping was the reason Perrin led his hodge podge army to rescue her, and got trapped Joel - 19/01/2013 01:00:26 AM 771 Views

Her kidnapping... Nargs - 19/01/2013 01:32:40 AM 796 Views

I said outright I do not fault her as a character for that (only Jordan for writing it that way.

) Joel - 19/01/2013 07:35:57 PM 854 Views

No it wasn't ... The dreamspike plot would have happened even had she not been kidnapped darius_sedai - 20/01/2013 01:24:25 AM 821 Views

Exactly Zeratul - 20/01/2013 06:59:33 PM 1089 Views

Wow... Nargs - 19/01/2013 01:49:56 AM 926 Views

Culture is sometimes a reason, but never an excuse. Joel - 19/01/2013 08:04:52 PM 905 Views

Just off color Nargs - 19/01/2013 10:03:58 PM 1010 Views

? Joel - 19/01/2013 10:44:28 PM 902 Views

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<quote id="271069">
<quote>I do not buy that regardless though; her dad never plays those kinds of juvenile manipulative games with Rand.  I would say she behaves like a spoiled teenager, but the simile is ruined by her being literally rather than figuratively just that.</quote>
Her father is not a female in that culture.  So many of her POVs refer to her culture as the reason for her behavior.

<quote>
"There was nothing to be done" is a CLASSIC attempted excuse for passively and silently watching tragedies unfold.  We can never be sure nothing she did could have prevented it because "nothing" is all she attempted.  I might cut her some slack for trying and failing, but NOT trying and failing is inexcusable.</quote> Had she jumped in and tried to stop him - that would not have been believable.  Imagine the emotions and shock and disbelief running through her at that moment. I cannot fault her for freezing.  Maybe you can.

<quote>Going south would have taken longer, but at least would not have been marching up to the DOs doorstep and hoping an ally found her instead of him or his Shadowspawn legions.</quote>Thats the point! It would have taken longer.  She fails.  She knew that.

<quote>Oh, gee, marching the Horn of Valere straight toward Shayol Ghul during Tarmon Gaidon got me captured by Shadowspawn; gee, who could have foreseen THAT? :rolleyes:</quote>She didn't get captured on her way to Shayol Ghul.

<quote>No, she did NOT "happen[] upon a situation that would allow them to get back immediately," and the proof is that THEY DID NOT; when Perrin found her under a pile of bodies later she was still in the middle of Shayol Ghul.</quote>You have it all wrong. (Page 752,753 - Faile ended up at Merrilor) & (Page 902 - Perrin found her at Merrilor)  Maybe you should reread the book... a little slower.

<quote>Taking warhorses to a warzone is not exactly attention getting.  Neither is a courier taking a racehorse.  Taking Bela only makes sense for the reason I said:  Greater carrying capacity and endurance.  Still, a bred military packhorse would have been far better, and a pack animal in a baggage train is as pedestrian as it gets.</quote>Wow. No response.

<quote>Yes, because that is the ONLY circumstance under which a <i>ta'veren</i> wife might need to make a fast getaway while carrying the Horn of Valere to ANOTHER <i>ta'veren</i> during Tarmon Gaidon.  But then, Faile does not seem familiar with the better and more discrete part of valor; often, that is precisely her problem.</quote> You know what?  I am done.... no more.
</quote>

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