Though I too have wished for them to make really hard choices...
Cannoli Send a noteboard - 15/01/2013 09:37:34 AM
...I think the bit with them always making the honorable choice might have been necessary as part of the whole "desperate straits" that the Light has been in. A battle between the Light & the Shadow, with all the importance of moral choices hinted at through the series, is about doing good stuff, rather than tactically clever things. I think a major mistake of Jordan's was the failure to emphasize that aspect of the battle. There are hints, like the Pattern being made out of life-threads or the fate of Aridhol or Min's recurring vision of lights fighting darkness, but it is not explicitly detailed how the situation vis a vis the Shadow is the cumulative result of everyone's behavior. "Belief and order give strength" and too many moral slipups by the important characters would leave the situation too far beyond redeeming.
Jordan always talked about the issue of how the Light is at the very end of their rope with the Shadow way ahead on points, and depending on a miracle to actually have a chance at the Dark One, and that was the situation as I perceived it from the text, but IMO, it was not sufficiently stated for most readers. Part of having their backs to the wall is that they have zero margin of error. By certain contemporary standards of character development, that is a weakness in the story, since they have to go from win to win, but there are too many parallel situations in the series for me to believe that's an accident.
One such example (which I recall writing a post complaining about, on either this board or wotmania) is how none of the good guys have to dirty their hands with their predecessor's blood in order to achieve the power they do. Rand does not have to kill any recalcitrant rulers in order to take power over a particular nation, Elayne does not have to depose Morgase, Egwene does not have to depose Siuan (or for that matter, Elaida, who gets conveniently removed right at the moment the Ajah Heads are most open to considering Egwene's leadership qualifications), Perrin does not have to seize power in the Two Rivers, or fight his in-laws, or depose the long-standing ruler of Ghealdan, Tuon doesn't have to overthrow her sociopathic mother (recall in tGH, she is cited as amusing herself by playing an a'dam equivalent of Russian Roulette with her damane and male courtiers) and Galad does not have to remove the Fain-tainted Pedron Niall. All of those old rulers who were in place when the series started, who were tied into the inadequate status quo, and thus a "part of the problem" who needed to be excised for the protagonists to do their thing, were all conveniently removed by other circumstances, allowing the characters to all climb to the summits of power with relatively clean hands. For all that Rand whines about the dirt he has to do, it's really only to people who have it coming, and very little is morally offensive, just mildly unpleasant for Mr. Nice Guy.
While I might have bemoaned this issue on previous occasions, now I can't help but think it might have been necessary in order to preserve the moral certainty and clear consciences of the leadership of the Light for Tarmon Gaidon. For here on out, Lan, Perrin, Cadsuane, Elayne and Tuon might have to make a lot of unpleasant-but-necessary moral choices in their positions as rulers of the world, but they needed to go into the Last Battle with pure hearts and clear consciences.
Jordan always talked about the issue of how the Light is at the very end of their rope with the Shadow way ahead on points, and depending on a miracle to actually have a chance at the Dark One, and that was the situation as I perceived it from the text, but IMO, it was not sufficiently stated for most readers. Part of having their backs to the wall is that they have zero margin of error. By certain contemporary standards of character development, that is a weakness in the story, since they have to go from win to win, but there are too many parallel situations in the series for me to believe that's an accident.
One such example (which I recall writing a post complaining about, on either this board or wotmania) is how none of the good guys have to dirty their hands with their predecessor's blood in order to achieve the power they do. Rand does not have to kill any recalcitrant rulers in order to take power over a particular nation, Elayne does not have to depose Morgase, Egwene does not have to depose Siuan (or for that matter, Elaida, who gets conveniently removed right at the moment the Ajah Heads are most open to considering Egwene's leadership qualifications), Perrin does not have to seize power in the Two Rivers, or fight his in-laws, or depose the long-standing ruler of Ghealdan, Tuon doesn't have to overthrow her sociopathic mother (recall in tGH, she is cited as amusing herself by playing an a'dam equivalent of Russian Roulette with her damane and male courtiers) and Galad does not have to remove the Fain-tainted Pedron Niall. All of those old rulers who were in place when the series started, who were tied into the inadequate status quo, and thus a "part of the problem" who needed to be excised for the protagonists to do their thing, were all conveniently removed by other circumstances, allowing the characters to all climb to the summits of power with relatively clean hands. For all that Rand whines about the dirt he has to do, it's really only to people who have it coming, and very little is morally offensive, just mildly unpleasant for Mr. Nice Guy.
While I might have bemoaned this issue on previous occasions, now I can't help but think it might have been necessary in order to preserve the moral certainty and clear consciences of the leadership of the Light for Tarmon Gaidon. For here on out, Lan, Perrin, Cadsuane, Elayne and Tuon might have to make a lot of unpleasant-but-necessary moral choices in their positions as rulers of the world, but they needed to go into the Last Battle with pure hearts and clear consciences.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
Somehow, I Actually Hate Faile MORE Now
- 14/01/2013 12:16:05 PM
3300 Views
Faile made Perrin less interesting
- 14/01/2013 01:15:22 PM
1275 Views
She paralyzed his character development even when Jordan thought she advanced it.
- 14/01/2013 02:38:29 PM
1373 Views
I skipped those chapters during my re-read
- 14/01/2013 10:36:11 PM
1592 Views
I do not blame you, but that practically means skipping TPoD through KoD.
- 15/01/2013 06:16:17 AM
1191 Views
Re: She paralyzed his character development even when Jordan thought she advanced it.
- 15/01/2013 12:39:23 AM
1252 Views
You just hit on probably the major structural weakness of the series with respect to characters.
- 15/01/2013 02:54:59 AM
1212 Views
There were plenty of hard choices, but they might have been handled better.
- 15/01/2013 06:58:30 AM
1315 Views
Though I too have wished for them to make really hard choices...
- 15/01/2013 09:37:34 AM
1271 Views
But they DO make hard choices; they just face relatively few hard consequences.
- 15/01/2013 10:08:19 AM
1131 Views
Rand certainly flirted with the moral Event Horizon a few times, so did some of the others
- 15/01/2013 10:33:23 AM
1289 Views
Mostly it's because it's clear in RJ's eyes that doing something like the things you suggest is wron
- 15/01/2013 12:41:03 PM
1195 Views
You obviously have a much lower threshold than I do in defining "hard choices". *NM*
- 15/01/2013 03:47:52 PM
618 Views
We are introduced to them as they choose between abandoning home w/ a stranger v. staying to die
- 15/01/2013 04:46:02 PM
1167 Views
Joel, I just said I disagreed with you. I didn't want to debate this series for the sake of debate. *NM*
- 15/01/2013 05:43:55 PM
594 Views
Also, how is choosing not to die a hard choice?
- 15/01/2013 05:46:46 PM
1042 Views
Because they had only a strange witchs word they would die, and leaving w/ her was perilous, too.
- 15/01/2013 06:17:16 PM
1048 Views
Jordan said he put some of himself in all the ta'veren, but its clearly strongest with Perrin.
- 15/01/2013 06:27:10 AM
1206 Views
I'm glad you have seen the Truth.
- 14/01/2013 01:35:36 PM
1270 Views
It was neck and neck with her and Min for a long while, but Min finally saw past her own nose.
- 14/01/2013 02:09:13 PM
1171 Views
I just added a sentence at the end to make the series end properly.
- 14/01/2013 10:47:18 PM
1241 Views
In all fairness Egwene did in fact pay homage to Bela
- 14/01/2013 08:36:40 PM
1121 Views
I think she fed her an apple once in TV or somewhere, too, but otherwise she ignored her.
- 15/01/2013 06:12:26 AM
1273 Views
Dramatic much? Bella lived a good life in TV and later in Salidar
- 20/01/2013 12:54:15 AM
7937 Views
Actually, I never understood why people LOVE that horse so much. She is just a horse! *NM*
- 15/01/2013 07:52:29 AM
643 Views
Pony. She is a pony. A loyal, goodnatured, overperforming and underappreciated pony.
- 15/01/2013 08:32:21 AM
1208 Views
honestly a child and a horse and you think the kid should be butchered?
- 20/01/2013 12:58:32 AM
1239 Views
honestly a child and a horse and you think the kid should be butchered?
- 20/01/2013 12:58:32 AM
1239 Views
The whole series is based upon the love of Bela and Narg and her struggle to come to terms with his
- 16/01/2013 04:01:59 AM
1040 Views
The real problem
- 15/01/2013 11:30:37 AM
1196 Views
Faile will surely domineer someone into pulling Tams carts for him.
- 15/01/2013 03:04:35 PM
1099 Views
The women in WoT are monsters
- 15/01/2013 11:59:39 AM
1592 Views
I do not consider most of the others all that bad, just idiosyncratic.
- 15/01/2013 03:05:51 PM
1391 Views
I agree completely...
- 15/01/2013 05:19:40 PM
1353 Views
Not to argue, but I think RJ created a world where women had the power
- 20/01/2013 01:17:11 AM
1194 Views
Agreed ... Nynaeve and Lan are the closest thing to "Healthy" in the series
- 20/01/2013 01:09:29 AM
1037 Views
Tell me then...
- 18/01/2013 09:08:08 AM
1109 Views
That's a fallacious question
- 18/01/2013 03:21:56 PM
1202 Views
Are you saying...
- 18/01/2013 09:21:34 PM
1098 Views
That is a pathetic answer.
- 19/01/2013 04:56:13 AM
1072 Views
You're a pathetic ass
- 19/01/2013 06:48:47 AM
1062 Views
LOL - that's funny, coming from you, one of the most pathetic fanboys around here. *NM*
- 19/01/2013 02:32:18 PM
553 Views
Oh, gosh, this could take a while.
- 18/01/2013 05:58:15 PM
1145 Views
How exactly was Faile the cause for Hopper's death?
- 19/01/2013 12:31:55 AM
1056 Views
Because her kidnapping was the reason Perrin led his hodge podge army to rescue her, and got trapped
- 19/01/2013 01:00:26 AM
975 Views
Her kidnapping...
- 19/01/2013 01:32:40 AM
1018 Views
I said outright I do not fault her as a character for that (only Jordan for writing it that way.
)
- 19/01/2013 07:35:57 PM
1073 Views
)
- 19/01/2013 07:35:57 PM
1073 Views
No it wasn't ... The dreamspike plot would have happened even had she not been kidnapped
- 20/01/2013 01:24:25 AM
1033 Views
Wow...
- 19/01/2013 01:49:56 AM
1124 Views
