She paralyzed his character development even when Jordan thought she advanced it.
Joel Send a noteboard - 14/01/2013 02:38:29 PM
He started going downhill within a chapter or so of her showing up and didn't get interesting again to LoC, but after she gets captured by the Shaido he gets boring again with the 100% obsessive focus on her.
Since I am convinced he modeled Perrin and Faile on himself and Harriet, perhaps he paid penance enough. The entire basis of their attraction is rather dubious (or just hackneyed.) I can see how discovering his careful, compassionate and committed nature could create an attraction in HER, but about all she brings to the table is viciousness, deceitfulness, manipulativeness and bureaucratic skill. Perrin has a need for the last after she browbeats him into accepting nobility, but Perrin finds all her other most prominent qualities especially repulsive in everyone else. When we get right down to it, what is the difference between Faile and Berelain? The latter is more attractive and does not repeatedly try to murder perceived rivals?
Frankly, out of the 10 principal love interests of our taveren trio - Egwene, Elayne, Min, Aviendha, and Lanfear for Rand, Faile and Berelain for Perrin, Tuon, the Tylin and that Aiel chick for Mat - the only ones that I feel added any depth to the story were Min, Lanfear as Selene and her book 4 aspect, and Mat's Aiel gal.
Actually pretty much every romantic relationship developed in the series screwed up the characters involved and made them more irritating - except Thom/Morraine, which was almost entirely off screen, and Nyneave/Lan, maybe just because whenever Nyneave was being irritating about Lan she was near one of the other girls who was being more irritating. I had been wishing some of the enormous volume devoted to the Last Battles would have explored Demandred's relationship with his Sharan chick but I'm actually glad in retrospect it wasn't because it probably would have ruined it.
Actually pretty much every romantic relationship developed in the series screwed up the characters involved and made them more irritating - except Thom/Morraine, which was almost entirely off screen, and Nyneave/Lan, maybe just because whenever Nyneave was being irritating about Lan she was near one of the other girls who was being more irritating. I had been wishing some of the enormous volume devoted to the Last Battles would have explored Demandred's relationship with his Sharan chick but I'm actually glad in retrospect it wasn't because it probably would have ruined it.
On the contrary, I feel Rands relationship with Min added the least depth to both characters. She gave him a confidante—but so did Elayne and Aviendha; the difference is they ALSO gave him a powerful ally who taught him a great deal about the diplomacy and statecraft of their respective cultures. All Min did was OCCASIONALLY, stumblingly, give him the insights into ancient texts that Moiraine once had. The difference there is that instead of taking bullets for him like she did, Min insisted on staying under foot so HE took bullets for HER when he should have been busy fighting the Shadow or Fain. Her talent was useful from time to time, but I am not sure that is worth losing a hand vital to his Blademaster skills or getting stabbed with a Shadar Logoth dagger.
I personally like the dynamic between Tuon and Mat; he does a great deal to humanize her, she keeps his mind on his business, and they provide each other much needed humility. Lanfear and Berelain I do not count (especially since it is doubtful any real love ever existed between either party in the first case, even when LTT lived; Rand even says as much.) Tylin was important to give Mat perspective on what it feels like to be chased as a sextoy rather than wooed as a partner. His attitude toward casual relationships changes noticeably after that; he does not instantly become a "marrying man," but he is far less indifferent about lecherously "loving" (i.e. "dallying with") and leaving women once the shoe has been on the other foot.
Faile, however, adds nothing but idiocy to Perrin; only in the final pages of AMoL does it finally penetrate his thick skull that sacrificing the Last Battle for her would be pointless even if right, since losing the Last Battle means losing her, too. She does not develop him, she UNdevelops a character whose defining characteristic is quiet careful deliberation. She does not even teach him the final valuable lesson of knowing when to let his instincts rule him: Master Luhan does. She does for him what Min does for Rand, except by the end of the series Min has learned the error of her ways; all Faile has learned is that she does not have to kill every attractive woman she sees to prevent Perrin cheating on her.
She is also more responsible than any other one thing for how the pacing completely DIES in books 8-11. We spent a third of the freaking series listening to Perrin channel an angst-ridden teen while she played at being a captive Machiavelli. I am sure it was all very touching for Harriet (who does not love knowing they are the model for the most universally despised character in their spouses two decade epic? ) Yet those 2000 pages of unceasing drudgery did more to turn off a once large and rabid fanbase than all the baths and embroidery in the Westlands.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 14/01/2013 at 02:45:22 PM
Somehow, I Actually Hate Faile MORE Now
14/01/2013 12:16:05 PM
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Faile made Perrin less interesting
14/01/2013 01:15:22 PM
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She paralyzed his character development even when Jordan thought she advanced it.
14/01/2013 02:38:29 PM
- 1151 Views
I skipped those chapters during my re-read
14/01/2013 10:36:11 PM
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I do not blame you, but that practically means skipping TPoD through KoD.
15/01/2013 06:16:17 AM
- 978 Views
Re: She paralyzed his character development even when Jordan thought she advanced it.
15/01/2013 12:39:23 AM
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You just hit on probably the major structural weakness of the series with respect to characters.
15/01/2013 02:54:59 AM
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There were plenty of hard choices, but they might have been handled better.
15/01/2013 06:58:30 AM
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Though I too have wished for them to make really hard choices...
15/01/2013 09:37:34 AM
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But they DO make hard choices; they just face relatively few hard consequences.
15/01/2013 10:08:19 AM
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Rand certainly flirted with the moral Event Horizon a few times, so did some of the others
15/01/2013 10:33:23 AM
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Mostly it's because it's clear in RJ's eyes that doing something like the things you suggest is wron
15/01/2013 12:41:03 PM
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You obviously have a much lower threshold than I do in defining "hard choices". *NM*
15/01/2013 03:47:52 PM
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We are introduced to them as they choose between abandoning home w/ a stranger v. staying to die
15/01/2013 04:46:02 PM
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Joel, I just said I disagreed with you. I didn't want to debate this series for the sake of debate. *NM*
15/01/2013 05:43:55 PM
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Also, how is choosing not to die a hard choice?
15/01/2013 05:46:46 PM
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Because they had only a strange witchs word they would die, and leaving w/ her was perilous, too.
15/01/2013 06:17:16 PM
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Jordan said he put some of himself in all the ta'veren, but its clearly strongest with Perrin.
15/01/2013 06:27:10 AM
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I'm glad you have seen the Truth.
14/01/2013 01:35:36 PM
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It was neck and neck with her and Min for a long while, but Min finally saw past her own nose.
14/01/2013 02:09:13 PM
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I just added a sentence at the end to make the series end properly.
14/01/2013 10:47:18 PM
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In all fairness Egwene did in fact pay homage to Bela
14/01/2013 08:36:40 PM
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I think she fed her an apple once in TV or somewhere, too, but otherwise she ignored her.
15/01/2013 06:12:26 AM
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Dramatic much? Bella lived a good life in TV and later in Salidar
20/01/2013 12:54:15 AM
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Actually, I never understood why people LOVE that horse so much. She is just a horse! *NM*
15/01/2013 07:52:29 AM
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Pony. She is a pony. A loyal, goodnatured, overperforming and underappreciated pony.
15/01/2013 08:32:21 AM
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honestly a child and a horse and you think the kid should be butchered?
20/01/2013 12:58:32 AM
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The whole series is based upon the love of Bela and Narg and her struggle to come to terms with his
16/01/2013 04:01:59 AM
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The real problem
15/01/2013 11:30:37 AM
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Faile will surely domineer someone into pulling Tams carts for him.
15/01/2013 03:04:35 PM
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The women in WoT are monsters
15/01/2013 11:59:39 AM
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I do not consider most of the others all that bad, just idiosyncratic.
15/01/2013 03:05:51 PM
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I agree completely...
15/01/2013 05:19:40 PM
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Not to argue, but I think RJ created a world where women had the power
20/01/2013 01:17:11 AM
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Agreed ... Nynaeve and Lan are the closest thing to "Healthy" in the series
20/01/2013 01:09:29 AM
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Tell me then...
18/01/2013 09:08:08 AM
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That's a fallacious question
18/01/2013 03:21:56 PM
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Are you saying...
18/01/2013 09:21:34 PM
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That is a pathetic answer.
19/01/2013 04:56:13 AM
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You're a pathetic ass
19/01/2013 06:48:47 AM
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LOL - that's funny, coming from you, one of the most pathetic fanboys around here. *NM*
19/01/2013 02:32:18 PM
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Oh, gosh, this could take a while.
18/01/2013 05:58:15 PM
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How exactly was Faile the cause for Hopper's death?
19/01/2013 12:31:55 AM
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Because her kidnapping was the reason Perrin led his hodge podge army to rescue her, and got trapped
19/01/2013 01:00:26 AM
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Her kidnapping...
19/01/2013 01:32:40 AM
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I said outright I do not fault her as a character for that (only Jordan for writing it that way. )
19/01/2013 07:35:57 PM
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No it wasn't ... The dreamspike plot would have happened even had she not been kidnapped
20/01/2013 01:24:25 AM
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Wow...
19/01/2013 01:49:56 AM
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