I don't think you need SUPREME skill to be Egwene level and pose a threat to the Foresaken. You might need that level of skill to be able to guarantee your survival every single time, but not if you want to pose a reasonable threat.
I think you're shooting your own argument about the importance of strength in the foot by insisting you need enormous skill to overcome the strength gap between Egwene and the Foresaken. Demandred would be content with a mere angreal then, to challenge Rand. He wants a sa'angreal, though, even though he's just a little less skilled than Rand.
I think you're shooting your own argument about the importance of strength in the foot by insisting you need enormous skill to overcome the strength gap between Egwene and the Foresaken. Demandred would be content with a mere angreal then, to challenge Rand. He wants a sa'angreal, though, even though he's just a little less skilled than Rand.
I'm not making an argument about the strength gap. The Forsaken are also among the most skilled Channelers who ever lived. Coupled with being among the strongest channelers who ever lived means if you are weaker than they are you must be MORE skilled than they are in order to stand a chance. Egwene level is clearly a step lower than Forsaken, thus for someone of that level to compete with an individual such as Graendal or Demandred they would need to be supremely skilled or they would get destroyed pretty quickly. It's akin to a boxing match where you are already giving up size and reach to you opponent, if you also give up skill you are heading for pain.
Moghedien and Asmodean showed a shocking lack of skill, but that may not be too surprising if you consider one was essentially an investment banker and the other a musician. Not exactly trained for dueling and the odds of them having to face off against an equal or greater force in their own Age would have been slim. And neither of them initiated the duels so they started off on the defensive from the beginning.
With that said even someone like Nynaeve who is on par with the Forsaken would need the skill to match them or to truly be a threat. Graendal herself makes note of it in TOM when she decides she must kill Nynaeve if Nynaeve has figured out how to unravel Compulsion ... Suddenly Nynaeve became a skilled opponent and thus a threat. Graendal had just as clearly been keeping tabs on Nynaeve looking for signs of such skills.
Mesaana says much the same of Egwene when she tells Sheriam that Egwene must be removed as Amyrlin. She isn't directly speaking of OP matters, but she acknowledged that Egwene was not what they wanted in the role ... They wanted a girl not a woman. It's a clear indication that the Forsaken do not wish to face off against opponents with any type of skill. This theme has gotten more pronounced throughout the series as the remaining Forsaken have hunkered down into their tasks. They are much more cunning and skillful in their attacks ... Even the ones that fall apart.
And of course Demandred wants the advantage of a sa'angreal ... That's the variable he has the most control over! Why face a possible loss if you can magnify your strength by 10x and not worry about LTTs superior skill ... There is a point when overwhelming strength differential makes any duel a moot point.
I don't really think that you can exceed the Forsaken in skill. They come from an Age where they were really well trained and they had a hundred years during the Collapse to alter it to destruction, and another ten to use it fully. Apart from that, they're too well rounded off as channelers. Semirhage's offhand weave to dissolve Cabriana's clothes is so complex that it stirs fear in the Aes Sedai. There is such a big gap. This isn't mindless Forsaken worshipping - I think the same of LTT and anyone else who suddenly appears in the Third Age. Maybe some herbalist in the destroyed future discovers the cure for cancer, but that doesn't make them as informed and skilled as a modern doctor.
I have no problem believing that Egwene with a lot of her skills and Talents could fight Alivia and stand her ground - even win. However, Alivia also doesn't need to be as skilled to win. She enters the fight with a heavy advantage. Merely sending a high powered shield after Egwene will cause a great deal of havoc. The more strength Egwene has to put into slicing Alivia's flows, the less she has for an offensive, so she would need to plan.
As for the Asmodean/Rand and Moghedien/Nynaeve fights, I think we're a little unfair. In all those battles the Forsaken were suddenly matched directly in strength. It's like being a martial arts master and someone is suddenly on you and you are grappling hands. It's difficult to be impressive if your hands are locked. Demandred probably had a similar experience - he had to use all his strength to slice Flinn's flows and thereafter he spent the rest of the time using his power to avoid death. If you can get a strong channeler on the back foot then they have no time to use their skill to weave anything. It becomes a brawl. In all the Forsaken battles at the Cleansing where the Forsaken struck first i.e. Graendal, Aran'gar, Cyndane - the Light were killed or injured because they could use their skill. Verin was almost instantly overwhelmed by reversing alone.
My point has been the same for ages. If you have less strength you MUST make up for it with greater skill. Thus Egwene could take on and defeat Alivia in your example.
As to how skilled the Forsaken are ... That is all debatable. Clearly they are much more skilled than any modern Channelers and it seems likely that they were among the most skilled of their own Age. But IMO skill, unlike Strength, has no upper limit. There can always be someone with more skill. Thus a nameless AS from the AoL may well have been skilled enough at Egwene's strength level to hold his/her own in a duel with one of the Forsaken. But someone like this would have a difficult time maintaining a spot at the highest level in the Forsaken hierarchy.
I agree with you assessments of the Asmodean/Moghedien duels ... They basically got jumped and had to fend off very powerful attacks. And at the Cleansing I'd add that most of the duels there were likely a few quick exchanges while fleeing the huge bombs Elza and team where hurling via Callandor. Otherwise I think the Forsaken may well have crushed their opponents.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 08/12/2012 at 02:51:23 PM
I really hate to bring up strength in the OP, but thankfully it doesn't regard Egwene or any women.
04/12/2012 06:01:45 AM
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My thoughts
04/12/2012 07:15:44 AM
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90 is REALLY high
04/12/2012 07:25:15 AM
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Couple of things ... **reminder that this is a lot of speculation**
04/12/2012 04:29:50 PM
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Narishma is definitely stronger, you're right.
07/12/2012 03:00:53 AM
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He was stronger than Aginor in order to channel the power of the Eye
07/12/2012 03:00:10 PM
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No I don't think so
07/12/2012 04:13:48 PM
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I'd say more than 80
07/12/2012 07:07:32 PM
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81 then
07/12/2012 08:11:34 PM
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and that's just YOUR theory Sidius
07/12/2012 09:13:42 PM
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Aginors defeat could be a result of multiple factors. So can Ishmaels
07/12/2012 01:24:18 PM
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Regardless, Rand was clearly in the same strength category when Aginor and he faced off
07/12/2012 03:03:04 PM
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I disagree.
07/12/2012 06:55:43 PM
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Aginor burned out trying to use the Eye in the real world
07/12/2012 07:12:44 PM
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Re: Aginor burned out trying to use the Eye in the real world
07/12/2012 07:51:37 PM
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he faced Asmodean strength for strength before Rahvin
07/12/2012 09:23:42 PM
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Just to be a bitch
07/12/2012 10:17:11 PM
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He didn't face Asmodean he chased him and wrestled him over a sa'angreal.
10/12/2012 11:16:18 PM
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Asmo hurled plenty of stuff at Rand during the "Chase" it wasnt all that much different
11/12/2012 03:16:36 AM
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I disagree with your plenty cause no one was TRYING to crush him. *NM*
11/12/2012 07:13:12 PM
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as I said before ... your interpretations are yours to have ... as are mine. *NM*
11/12/2012 09:16:36 PM
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think youre misjudgjng the benefits of the link. they dont have to add up to 90.
07/12/2012 12:34:59 PM
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There is also no why to tell if Flinn hit Demandred with all the strength available to him either
07/12/2012 03:05:38 PM
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the "circle" was stronger but the individuals weren't *NM*
07/12/2012 06:58:38 PM
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that's what I just said *NM*
07/12/2012 07:23:34 PM
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that was not clear *NM*
07/12/2012 07:43:54 PM
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*shrug*
07/12/2012 09:25:00 PM
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Re: *shrug*
10/12/2012 11:27:42 PM
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If I had said the individuals in the circle added to Dmandreds strength perhaps
11/12/2012 03:28:23 AM
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in the context of this discussion you did not distinguish between the effective strength and
11/12/2012 07:10:48 PM
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whatever ... didn't think it was necessary ... and with that I'm done
11/12/2012 09:16:03 PM
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About Rand's strength... an important quote is being ignored:
08/12/2012 12:37:38 AM
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Perhaps
08/12/2012 01:01:21 AM
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Re: Perhaps
08/12/2012 02:06:39 AM
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Like I said ... Could be
08/12/2012 02:33:43 AM
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I disagree...
08/12/2012 04:53:09 AM
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Re: I disagree...
08/12/2012 05:20:08 AM
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I disagree again!
08/12/2012 05:49:15 AM
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Probably
08/12/2012 02:46:15 PM
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I don't think the Forsaken are good examples
08/12/2012 06:18:45 AM
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We're essentially saying the same thing now
08/12/2012 02:37:17 PM
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Always thought the forsaken didn't really know much about Rand
08/12/2012 02:38:08 AM
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And they had plenty of spies around him and clearly knew that he managed
08/12/2012 02:43:15 AM
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Re: And they had plenty of spies around him and clearly knew that he managed
08/12/2012 05:34:54 AM
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Who can say. Graendal wraps them so deep in compulsion that she can dig
08/12/2012 05:42:39 AM
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I don't think they could have had a clear idea of his strength eary in the series...
08/12/2012 09:34:36 AM
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Re: I don't think they could have had a clear idea of his strength eary in the series...
08/12/2012 02:54:08 PM
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Re: About Rand's strength... an important quote is being ignored:
11/12/2012 11:36:51 PM
- 749 Views